July 28, 2017 at 12:36
That’s true UNLESS someone renounces Jesus Christ as their Savior and speaks against Him. Example: I don’t remember his name but he renounced Christ as his Savior and went around to colleges denouncing Christ. He will only be saved IF he reclaims Christ as Savior, asks forgiveness, and repents IN HIS HEART.
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July 28, 2017 at 13:52
Hi Sue, thanks for the thought there, although I don’t agree totally with the sentiment. I see that Scripture teaches that a truly saved child of God won’t renounce Him on a permanent sense. I would say that any who would make such a claim never knew Him as Savior truly in the first place. I know not all agree with what I would teach in that regard, but I do see that being the Biblical teaching. If that fellow claimed he was a saved believer, then was not….he never was.
July 29, 2017 at 11:31
Sorry Wally but I can’t agree with you here. A Christian is a “Christ follower.” I followed Christ and believed Him for several years but after being told “You don’t have to move anymore” and then He moved me again I came within a hair of walking away. In the end I CHOSE to move again. What I’m hearing you say is “you weren’t a Christian to begin with” had I walked away. No, I was a believer that Satan lambasted and convinced me that God lied to me, deceived me, etc. Even “true” believers can be deceived as is pretty evident in today’s society. And who “truly” knows Him? I learn more about Him all the time.
July 29, 2017 at 11:42
Sue, even a save believer can descend into some pretty serious rebellion and God still never lets them go. How far is that? Beats me. We don’t ever know that, as we don’t know a person’s heart. Yes, Christian are defined by being “Christ followers.” However, we don’t maintain our salvation by that following. That negates the concept of grace. I don’t know what it would have meant had you refused. I suspect you would have been seriously chastised for that, but never let go. You might have been faced with the loss of all rewards you may have earned for God’s glory. But let go? No.
This is precisely why, even among people I would say with certainty to be saved, I will always present the Gospel. I pray they will do the same for me.
Keep reading my series on this, I think it will address much of what concerns you about this.
July 29, 2017 at 12:13
I love ya’ Wally and I’m not discounting His grace but I don’t think that if someone who did believe turns away; heart, mind, body, and soul, and dies, He’s going to take them by the hand and jerk them through heavens gate and say, “I said you were saved!” Yes, I will be reading what you write on this in the future. So far, can’t agree. ha ha
July 29, 2017 at 12:23
Just start in the first post the the series Jesus Paid it all. I have broken it down in bite sized pieces. They have been running in Wednedsays!
July 28, 2017 at 13:44
Amen! I shall now break out in a rendition of “Signed,Sealed,and Delivered” by Stevie Wonder. 😉
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July 28, 2017 at 13:53
And THAT would be the perfect song! Thanks IB.
July 28, 2017 at 13:46
Spoken like a true Calvinist, Wally. As you know, I agree with Sue.
July 28, 2017 at 13:57
I know you do, Don. And I am not a Calvinist LOL. You know that also! Me a Calvinist….ha ha ha ha ha. That’s pretty funny. I do accept the teaching of those folks concerning the Eternal Security of believers…under all circumstances.
July 28, 2017 at 14:20
July 28, 2017 at 14:47
I am having this same conversation over at Anthony Bakers place as we speak. It’s fun, but we won’t divide over it, right?
July 28, 2017 at 15:21
No, Wally. It’s certainly not losing fellowship over. Let’s face it, Believers didn’t argue over this for 1500 years before Calvin came along.
July 28, 2017 at 15:33
Well, yeah, they all knew I was right without consulting that Calvin guy!
July 28, 2017 at 14:57
You’re right on target, Wally. Once a person genuinely accepts Christ, they could never genuinely renounce Him. It would be like a tiger declaring it has no stripes. I walked away from the Lord for a long time, but I could never have renounced Him. Since we still have our sin nature and disobey the Lord all the time, at what exact point would we lose our salvation? Once adopted, always family. Not as a license to sin, but to glorify His grace.
July 28, 2017 at 15:00
Of course I agree Tom, and that does remain the question…where is the line. It might shock you to know that I had a crisis of faith myself and even said words out loud declaring it was all stupid and I was done. Was I briefly lost? I do not believe that to be the cases, but yet for a short, intense period of time I claimed I thought God and all his followers were stupid and I wanted nothing to do with them. This was only a day or so, but the feeling was very real to me. Yet, God did not let me go, nor do I believe He had let me go during that time.
July 28, 2017 at 15:28
Thanks for sharing, Wally. I imagine many Christians could testify to something similar. Theologians have obviously gone round and round on this one but a true child of God turning to complete defiance or unbelief? I can’t see it.
July 28, 2017 at 15:37
I don’t see it either, Tom. Having said that, I can’t deny that the cases for each can be made compellingly. In the end, since Scripture is not completely clear necessarily, we can only apply our feeble human logic try to decide. I personally believe God does this to keep us in His Word trying to figure it out. If it was all totally clear, we would just read it once and stop.
July 28, 2017 at 16:07
As with the debates over election and eschatology, it’s not going to affect my salvation in Christ or my relationship with Him so I don’t fret about it personally, but I think those who hold to a strict Arminian understanding border on a works soteriology and there’s a danger there.
July 28, 2017 at 16:31
Again I would agree Tom. The truth is there is room for most views as long as the causal agent is always by Grace through faith. That constant is crystal clear.
July 29, 2017 at 00:51
Wow that’s a good point and observation from the “born” motif.
July 29, 2017 at 06:43
Thanks bro Jim
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