James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Read all of James Chapter 4 here
This is an interesting phrase to have just right out of the blue in James’ writing, and it probably is worth some explanation. James is about to launch into a discussion of who our primary relationship is going to be with: Will that be with God, or will it be with the world.
James is not making a reference here to an actual act of committing adultery here. He is not accusing the believers he is writing to of cheating on their husbands and wives. It seems evident that a reference to that subject would seem slightly out of place. What, then, is James saying?
What Jame is referring to here is spiritual rather than sexual infidelity. Specifically he is addressing Jewish believers who were violating their covenant relationship with God by loving the world rather than Him. Are there parallels for the church today? Probably there are, as the church today is what? The Bride of Christ.
At any rate, the Jewish believers that James was writing to would have understood his reference immediately. The covenant relationship of Israel with God is in many ways a picture of the Covenant relationship a man and woman have in marriage. The nation of Israel had a history of violating this covenant and turning to other idols and gods rather than the One True God whom they were, in essence married to.
Let us look at some Old Testament passages where we see this.
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
2 Chronicles 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
Psalm 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
Ezekiel 16:32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
Jesus also referred to the Jews of His day as the equal of a cheating wife:
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Clearly, James was trying to make a point here; the point he was making was very serious. If we choose a relationship with the world, we are, in effect, cheating on God as a husband or wife who had a relationship with another would also be cheating.
We today are supposed to be the Bride of Christ. If we are, what is our relationship with our Bridegroom? Are we faithful, or are we adulterers?
Truth in Palmyra 
December 30, 2016 at 07:59
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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December 30, 2016 at 08:49
Thanks brother Vincent!
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December 30, 2016 at 09:29
You’re very welcome Brother Wally 😊
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December 30, 2016 at 10:59
It’s good to keep in mind that when the apostle refers to the world, he is speaking about it’s systems and they way the world perceives what is going on, the realities of existence and how they perceive that. Too many fall into the trap, extending being a friend to the world to it’s citizens. The ones whom Christ has died for he loves and would never have us shun them, after all he was a friend to all who would have Him. We should be as well. We cannot engage in all they do, but we certainly can be a friend to the world’s citizens.
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December 30, 2016 at 12:12
Well said friend. That is very important. We are not to shun them at all…as we were they not so long ago, and what if WE had been shunned?
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December 30, 2016 at 14:27
There is a separation from anything that would dishonor God, but beyond that they are souls who will be spending eternity somewhere, we should be compassionate towards them, reaching them if we can.
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December 30, 2016 at 14:34
Amen, brother.
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December 30, 2016 at 11:07
This is very good — but I don’t think you are being harsh enough on the commuters of adultery. God is indeed the enemy of an adulterer.
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December 30, 2016 at 12:15
Thanks for the encouraging word friend. I struggle somewhat being totally on board with your thought to be honest.
It’s not always our place to be harsh or to condemn. We, or course have to talk about sin, but it is not ours to pronounce judgment upon it.
Also, mostly James addresses believers in this Epistle, so in actuality they are in fact no longer enemies with God, but friends, sons and daughters adopted through the work of Jesus Christ.
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December 30, 2016 at 13:33
“Also, mostly James addresses believers in this Epistle, so in actuality they are in fact no longer enemies with God, but friends, sons and daughters adopted through the work of Jesus Christ.”
Darn, you may be right.
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December 30, 2016 at 13:58
It happens every now and then LOL
Thanks for coming by brother.
🙂
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January 18, 2017 at 10:18
In all honesty, God is the enemy of all types of sin, some are more eggrias than others such as sexual sin, but what’s important to keep in mind is that we all answer to God, it is He who exalts or debases. If we place ourselves as their judge we are wrong. We can judge an action if its right or wrong, within the church we are acountable to (or should be) each other. But an unsaved person, one who is not in a relationship with our Lord doesnt fall into this catagory. He isnt part of the family of God, he would tell you your rules dont apply to him. This is when we can show him from the word of God that those actions are not according to the Word of God and show him the consequences for that. We arent God, we can see actions and judge if they are right or wrong, but we can not see the human heart, this is where we have to leave it with God. Those who have done wrong will answer for it, but they will answer to God, not us.
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January 18, 2017 at 10:27
Good points you have made there. I don’t think one sin, per se, is more serious than another, but people’s reaction to it. Sexual sin, for instance, tends to be couple with yet more sin, such as lies. Furthermore, some categories tend to be practiced by those who simply don’t repent, and even want to celebrate them.
Your final point? Perfect. They certainly don’t answer to us!
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January 18, 2017 at 10:49
You may be right about that Wally, still there are sins that God hates, things He refers to as an abomination. While I am not 100% sure about this, it seems to me to indicate some things may displease God more than others. Either way it will not thwart God’s judgement.
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January 18, 2017 at 11:03
And you may be correct as well. As you also, pointed out, in the end it won’t matter unless one is forgiven through the payment made by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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January 18, 2017 at 11:12
Amen.
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January 18, 2017 at 11:29
Something perhaps to consider Wally. We were made in the image of God, so what is an image? Take a photograph, a visual copy of what we see, closely resembling the original. My point, much of what we feel as far as emotions, happiness, sadness, etc… are simply reflections of the original source, God Himself. I feel emotions because i am made in His own image. So my question for contemplation is this, if we have this sense of abhorance more so for some sins than others, is this a reflection of God’s emotions as well? That being said, all sin is repugnant to God.
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January 18, 2017 at 12:50
Hmmmm…I shall ponder and reflect on that, my friend.
How have you been? Haven’t seen you around much.
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January 18, 2017 at 15:50
Not too bad, been waiting the last 5 days for a new computer to get here, they’ve managed to miss 2 guarenteed arrival dates so far on this one item, heh heh, tell me the Lord is teaching me patience , brother… 😊
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January 18, 2017 at 15:55
LOL..He does that huh?
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January 18, 2017 at 23:02
Ambassadorslog, your comment. “We were made in the image of God, so what is an image? Take a photograph, a visual copy of what we see, closely resembling the original.”
As you suggest God must also be emotional and must have become angry enough to have people killed. Therefore, it is obvious God must not be infallible and he himself is guilty of a great sin, or is this where the devil steps in?
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January 19, 2017 at 14:52
Thanks skylid, you are actually very observant. You are correct in that God has emotions like anger, sadness, etc… Perhaps you wouldn’t mind if I shared some of what I have learned of Him? One thing about God is that He can only be Himself. His attributes cant change, there is a word that is used in the Bible “Immutable” it means something that can’t be changed. It is used in reference to His inability to lie and His own character, that is those attributes that make up His own personality. This works absolutely perfect for everyone, even you. You see, I love the Lord because know Him. Since He can’t lie, I know He will back up everything in His word. The promises to me and the asurance of those promises are of great satisfaction to me. However, for those who don’t know Him it is a treasure trove as well. Some folks have suspicions of whether its just all folklore, you know, rubbish. Basically since God’s attributes can’t change, all you have to do is to find an instance of something He does or says that is inconsistant with with His attributes. There is a lot He says about Himself. If you have something to hide, i would think it would be best not to say to much. So if the Bible is fiction and God is a hoax all you have to do is find the inconsistancy between what He says and does versus what He says about Himself. While your argument was good there are some flaws in reasoning that perhaps you simply overlooked, such as killing and murder. If you are faced with killing to prevent a much further atrocity, is it wrong? Murder on the other hand denotes a killing of another kind, one in which there is malitious intent. Now i realize you can respond to my feeble attempts at discourse, you seem quite intelligent. So lets make it real since we can both express ourselves in an understandable manner. Regardless of what i ask you, you can respond to me in a manner in which you wish others to percieve you. Thats true whether you tell me the truth or a lie. However, when you are actively in relating it, one person who knows the truth of the response (at least in most cases) is you. So here’s my question … Are you satisfied?
Generally, in life. Do you have enough money? Are you happy?
Thats something a lot of folks would like to have. You know, I didnt get where I am overnight, but i truely am happy with what i have . I discovered God has always met my my need, always. I remember many times in need, i used to try try to figure out how He was going meet that need, heh heh, I was always wrong 😅 but the need was always met. Now while i still try to figure out how He is going to handle any given situation (we enjoy the commraderie) I don’t worry about it. Do you know why? Because God is good, He promised He would take care of me, many verses state this truth. Now, if He promises it, and He cant lie, what do I have to worry about? Can you ask yourself if you can honestly say the same, no worries, and contentment. You can tell me anything in response, it’s fine, I understand because I’ve been there myself. Either way, what I have, no one can take from me, nothing can impact it. It’s available to everybody, this contentment, but only for those who choose to have it.
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December 30, 2016 at 17:26
Wally, I have a respectful question from my ignorance of all things in your world. Why is it that adulterers are not condemned so passionately like homosexuals are by some Christian denominations? I understand in the old days you may have been put to death for either of these offences.
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December 30, 2016 at 17:33
Well, that’s actually a pretty good question, Steve. In the eyes of God, sin is sin, and adultery is certainly as serious as homosexuality. One might ask the same question regarding the stance of some Christians concerning divorce. God hates divorce. So, in on sense we tolerate those more than the other because, like much of our sin…we like it.
There, I came clean quite honestly there.
Now, on the other hand, Christians have not totally caused this in and of themselves. It’s also evident that no other sin committed by any group of people is so passionately promoted as homosexuality. By this I mean no one is proposing that it might actually be hate speech, or against the law to say adultery is wrong.
I hope that clarifies somewhat. Again, that was actually a good question. Not really post related LOL, as I made it clear the text was not actually talking about physical adultery…but still a good question.
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December 30, 2016 at 19:28
Thanks Wally, It just used to make me think that when these people were protesting against gay people how many were guilty of adultery. You know the old story about casting the first stone.
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December 30, 2016 at 19:40
Did you read James’ comment also, Steve? He made some great points which really reinforced what I just told you.
And…RE that whole casting the first stone thing? That doesn’t mean we should not call sin..sin when we see it. So, just because some people might be committing adultery would never be cause for me to not say homosexuality is not sinful. It is. And by the way….as James said you have gone with a narrative more than a reality. Who exactly is out there “protesting” against gay people? I certainly don’t know any. Heck even in our conservative little country Baptist church, we have a young man who is as gay as the say is long who attends regularly? Is he active in that lifestyle..nope he sure isn’t. So, I can honestly say I have not met any Christians “protesting” gay people. Some speak their minds, as do I…but that is not protesting against.
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December 30, 2016 at 18:03
Steve,
First of all, homosexuals are not passionately condemned by all Christians nor all churches, I think you are confusing a narrative with reality at least to a degree. There are openly gay couples in my church right now who have been welcomed and are just as loved as anyone else.
That said, even adulterers know what they are doing is wrong and are remorseful, which often leads to repentance.
Homosexuals on the other hand completely disregard the fact that what they are doing is sinful, that’s the difference.
Sin, regardless of how bad it is (by human standards that is, it’s all equally bad to God) that can be repented of where a lifestyle of sin where no forgiveness is ever asked for is complety different.
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December 30, 2016 at 18:09
Good answer James thanks
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December 30, 2016 at 20:00
James, I never did think all Christians were all of the same thoughts and I must disagree that all homosexuals are driven simply by choice and desire because I believe it is not that simple and have more social and scientific answers.
As God finds all sins equally as bad, homosexuals have been picked on much more than they should be don’t you agree? And am I correct, if they ask for forgiveness before they die will they will be judged as equally as other sinners?
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December 30, 2016 at 20:04
I’ll jump in here Steve if James does not mind, as at least part of this is simple.
” And am I correct, if they ask for forgiveness before they die will they will be judged as equally as other sinners?”
Yes, absolutely that is true.
I only add this….for those who repent and believe? Judgment is not a word that applies any longer. All sins…great and small…pride to mass murder…little white lies to armed robbery..all are potentially covered by the death of Christ who paid what we owed.
Believe..
But, to your question…Yes, yes, and more yes!
Now…the subject of how repentant, forgiven sinners should live after salvation…that’s another topic all together.
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December 30, 2016 at 21:13
Ok thank you for that Wally.
I completely understand that a large majority of Christian groups do not protest and I would not lump you all together.
You must admit that Homosexual issues including some public demonstrations have been on the news with positive and negative comments written and debated by Christian and non-Christian writers alike over this last decade from around the world mostly due to the marriage equality thing but that is altogether a different debate.
To set the record straight (excuse the pun) I am a heterosexual, and if I believed homosexuality was a pure and simple choice I would not defend this life style in any form, but I will defend these people as equals based on the scientific evidence we have so far.
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December 30, 2016 at 21:40
Ok Steve I think we will just leave it where we found it so to speak
You are pretty set on illustrating your thought here
You have so lets move on
I don’t suppose you have any thoughts on my rather detailed study of the book of James?
On of his primary topics of discussion is how Christians should treat others. That might provide some reading that could help you with some of your questions before you even ask
See that is what I attempt to do on this blog..i try to teach other Christians how to grow in their Faith.
I think if you spent more time on the actual content of my lessons here instead of zeroing in one one word or phrase that you would answer many of your own questions and I would have to spend far less time defending my Faith against accusations which often have no basis in actual fact
Try it you might like it
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December 30, 2016 at 21:00
Hey Steve,
I believe that if homosexuals ask for forgiveness from their sins, they can be saved by the blood of Christ just like anyone else, we are all sinners, after all.
I think homosexuality is a choice and there isn’t any science that proves otherwise. Regardless, that is a debate I don’t really feel like having here or now.
Have homosexuals been picked on? Sure, for a long time and by many groups of people including those who are not religious at all.
People who pick on homosexuals do it because, for some twisted reason, they find sport in it that can’t be found in other sin. Anyone ever make fun of thieves, adulterers, drunkards, prostitutes?
Really, though, if you want to have a discussion about homosexuals being picked on or scorned, why don’t we mention the religion who kills them for who they are today, not what OT law punishment was thousands of years ago? Jesus came to do away with civil penalty for sins so why people were put to death in the OT is irrelevant now.
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December 30, 2016 at 21:15
Steve,
For the record, I personally, will strongly rebuke anyone who makes fun of any person for any reason and also claims to be a Christian. Condemning sin is one thing but we are called to “Do unto others…”
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January 22, 2017 at 00:13
I have a thought on that Steve, perhaps you would like to hear it. First, let me say God hates divorce. Now my thought may or may not be correct, but I’ll let you consider it for what it’s worth. Anyway, God hates divorce, the reason is because marriage represents Christ and the Church. Marriage is the closest intimate relationship in life which makes it a good representation. Separation (divorce) ruins that picture and destroys individuals. That’s why God hates it.
Now my thought is my own and is simply this, Marriage is between a man and a woman, it’s a good relationship. A person who is a Christian, (a member of the Church) has a relationship like that with God, intimate and rewarding for both individuals. We can’t be God, there is only one God. Two dissimilar beings, that compliment each other in a way that nothing else could. Perhaps, only perhaps, that is why God hates intimate relationships (as in sexual) between two men or two women. In a homosexual relationship you have two of the same kind (anatomically) this also ruins the picture God has given us. As I said this is my own thought, I have never heard anyone else say it. Best thing to do in a case like that is what a group of guys called Bereans did.
Acts 17:11 10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
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January 22, 2017 at 02:28
Thank you ambassadorslog on your thoughts. I believe that a marriage is the primary commitment for both involved and I also dislike divorce, especially when children are involved.
I can understand however that marriage is a whole lot different today than it was thousands of years ago, and even from only decades ago. From a simple life style of just 60 years ago, when leaving school and finding a job to earn enough money to buy food, a car, find a bride, build a house or pay the rent was relatively straight forward. Today kids are under immense pressure to study harder to get obtain higher educational qualifications to create a chance to find an income. The young family will likely be influenced and subjected to mega choices of social media, games, movies, drugs, fraud, loan sharks, violence and alcohol to mention a few.
This lifestyle of course will have effects on all human emotional states and their overall wellbeing, and I think the lifetime partner dream is mostly just that.
Divorce may ruin the picture of Christ and the church from hundreds of years ago, however that would not be a consideration in our current decade. In fact, separation and divorce are often considered a good thing when violence and abuse is involved.
Regarding your own thoughts, I would be unable to have an intimate relationship with a God or deity that I have never seen or spoken too. I would also paint the same picture regarding our changing times and the homosexual communities. Some countries it is still a death sentence but within the last couple of decades’ homosexuals and lesbians have emerged in their masses from the wardrobes in the western world and they are now recognised as equals within our societies with some churches accepting this change.
I believe all the churches have no choice but to adapt and absorb genuine scientific developments and to redefine what modern societies demand of them or they will self-destruct. Like any business, the customers are always diverse and often difficult but they are always right.
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December 30, 2016 at 21:41
James, that is good that yours and Wally’s church is not condemning homosexuals.
I also do not want to get into a scientific debate, but I do not need to tell you that nothing, and literally I mean “nothing” on this planet is as simple and straight forward as we like to think.
Scientists have not discovered all the intricacies of our complex brain, and until some of the major issues of biological, phycological and cerebral science involving human behaviour and social discrepancies are clearly defined nobody should make final judgements and condemn anybody.
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December 30, 2016 at 21:47
Steve
Read. My.Comment
We aren’t going to debate the roots of homosexual behavior on this post
I don’t mean to be short with you as I know you will likely say that I have again stifled open discussion when I didn’t like it
Well ain’t true lol
Seriously you are hijacking this to be your personal forum to campaign for gay rights. I’m gonna ask you nicely to put a cork in it so I don’t have to actually get pugnacious here
Meanwhile if you have thoughts on my exposition of the book of James I would love to hear them
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December 31, 2016 at 01:53
Very good post. You are right to point out that James is not talking about physical adulterers, but is calling those who are spiritually unfaithful. In light of the Old Testament background you cited, with our understanding of how God sees adultery, we see that our own compromise with God is also unfaithfulness to Him is very heinous. May we not compromise!
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January 7, 2017 at 19:33
Wally you have definitely hit a nail on the head with this one. I also enjoyed reading the comments left. I have ruffled more than a few feathers when discussing the topic of adultery myself. I even upset one of my close friends when I had shared with her that when we used to go out to clubs and dressed provocatively we had committed adultery. I had to explain even though we may not have gone home with any of the men we met we purposely dressed in a seductive manner for the purpose of wanting men to desire us. It was an empty attempt to fill a void within us yet no matter the reason Jesus made it clear when He said to even look upon a woman with lust in your eyes is to commit the sin of adultery. Yes I have repented and now I try to share the lessons God has taught me about myself. Adultery can be committed in so many ways and your post gives excellent examples of adultery. God bless you and your loved ones may He prosper and protect you all your days.
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January 8, 2017 at 06:52
You know, I have had that conversation with guy friends of mine, when they look at women. I had to remind a friend the other day…”Hey, your eyes don’t belong to you anymore, they belong to your wife!”
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January 19, 2017 at 23:49
Thank you ambassadorslog for such an in-depth response. My impression of the Bible is that it was a document written and put together by numerous and various individuals for the primary benefit of controlling a relatively primitive and superstitious people. The fact that God has never been seen or done anything physical is a good indication he does not exist in our physical reality as we understand it. Reality is normality and has its ups and downs regardless of any gods or controlling forces. I have always been amazed how chance, luck and random events shape our lives and how we always seem to perceive the worst outcome when it was mostly based on an emotion.
From what we know about the Bible and many older religions, I do not have any belief in the Bible to hold many truths at all, therefore I consider it as inconsistent especially when you consider it has many hundreds of translations that are interpreted by many apologetics who often argue between themselves in a futile attempt to maintain credibility for believers.
I ask you what atrocity is worse than killing men women and children? If you had the ultimate power attributed to most of the gods throughout history including Yahweh, having people butchered with swords and fire, floods, diseases or any earthly system seems to be at odds with the most powerful person who can create the complete universe but cannot change the actions of his creations when in retrospect he is supposed to be able to control everyone and everything considering he is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent.
Your God will never lie to you and you will find truth and wisdom in the Bible that I will never doubt. What is true and real for you is emotionally generated within a spiritual domain that is personal and works for your reality. Life was and never will be a bed of roses no matter what your belief system is, however I can honestly say I would have a variation of the same no worries and contentment as you specify, we just go about it in a different way. Having said this, I would also say that to put this in context we live in a western type democracy that has food and medicine.
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January 20, 2017 at 05:54
Hi Steve
Let me help out here if I may, since as usual you have gone off in some direction that apparently only you know.
” My impression of the Bible is that it was a document written and put together by numerous and various individuals for the primary benefit of controlling a relatively primitive and superstitious people. ‘
As before, I plead with you to substantiate your blanket statements of your personal authority concerning The Bible with something besides your opinion and your impression. Who exactly did what you said, and exactly who were the primitive superstitions people they did it to. Who are these people:?
No one has ever seen God? Really? Again, obviously you have NEVER read the book you are so critical of.
God has never done anything physical? Does your place have window? Look out of it.
But, back to your original question. I will ask you one, and if your answer is anything besides a direct answer to this very exact, precise answer, no further answers to you will be given on this post.
Your issue was God getting angry and killing people. Provide me a singe case from The Bible where God killed a single person simply because He was angry. Now remember, the anger has to be the sole and only reason. Find….just one. One. That is your challenge. You have made the charge, so instead of chasing you around in never ending circles of incoherence…hows about you support it.
Thanks!
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January 20, 2017 at 08:58
Obviously Wally you have never read anything that does not agree with your doctrine and if you did you will find many differing opinions and I was offering mine based on what I have read. Of course, I originally asked ambassadorslog if God was angry enough to kill people due to sharing the same emotions as us. My opinions are part of my reply to some questions ambassadorslog asked me but your comments are disruptive and have nothing in common with my conversation with ambassadorslog.
However here are some alternative opinions to yours, enjoy.
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/bible-scholar-jesus-never-lived-myth-created-by-romans-to-control-masses/news/2013/10/10/76659
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2013/10/11/self-professed-bible-scholar-makes-explosive-allegation-about-jesus-that-he-believes-could-rock-the-christian-faith-to-its-core/
http://www.rense.com/general66/hide.htm
http://www.alternet.org/story/154466/15_ways_the_bible_is_used_by_christians_and_the_gop_to_control_and_malign_women
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/were-only-human/why-do-we-have-religion-anyway.html#.WIErUlN96Uk
This is more to do with self-control than mass control
https://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/religion-14/the-conflict-perspective-on-religion-107/religion-and-social-control-596-2095/
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January 20, 2017 at 12:10
Ah. …so my comments on my blog are disruptive….on my blog
Wow
Answer my question
The one i asked
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January 20, 2017 at 12:13
Wow Steve
Your sources are academic garbage lol
I shall leave them simply for the humorous value
Bye Steve
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January 22, 2017 at 13:27
I apologize for not responding to this sooner, I just saw it this morning, heh heh, real organized here.. 🙂 First off, you cover a lot of ground, so if you don’t mind, I’d like to respond to each paragraph as a separate comment. We have a birthday party here today so may not finish it all today, so please be patient with me.. 🙂
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January 22, 2017 at 15:03
Absolutely no problem at all. Take your time, I have similar time restraints and these issues need thought and time and we do not always have it when required.
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January 23, 2017 at 11:44
Heh heh, thought that birthday party would get me in trouble 🙂 However I am free to respond this morning so here we go with a portion of your comment and a response.
“Thank you ambassadorslog for such an in-depth response. My impression of the Bible is that it was a document written and put together by numerous and various individuals for the primary benefit of controlling a relatively primitive and superstitious people.”
You are correct in that the Word of God was put together by numerous individuals, however nowhere in its pages do we find that its purpose was to control man. We do however find this.
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Romans 15:4
“The fact that God has never been seen or done anything physical is a good indication he does not exist in our physical reality as we understand it. Reality is normality and has its ups and downs regardless of any gods or controlling forces. I have always been amazed how chance, luck and random events shape our lives and how we always seem to perceive the worst outcome when it was mostly based on an emotion.”
Sir, have you ever seen the wind? Perhaps, (heh heh, don’t take this wrong 🙂 ), you’ve seen your brain? God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him, worship Him in spirit and in truth. Just because you can’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Now as far as normality, who defines what’s normal? Is it an arbitrary value assigned by society at large, which is subject to change? If we were talking of morals for instance, one day you have Heterosexual standards as acceptance of a proper marriage, the next you add Homosexuals to the list. You have states that pass death with dignity legislation. How long before it becomes mandatory at a certain time for the good of society? Now these are extreme issues and my point is not to debate them, rather to illustrate that if moral standards are subject to change, then they are no longer standards of any kind. However your assertion that God is not involved is based on your worldview, the manner in which you perceive the world around you. Some folks say they don’t believe in God, in some cases that may be true, however in others (many others) they simply don’t wish to acknowledge that because if it is true, it condemns them.
John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
I’m sure you recognize at least the first part of that section, but verse 18, “condemned already” Do you see why so many try to discredit the Bible? “condemned already” Most hold out hope, that if they have lived a relatively good life they will go on to a better place, the Bible contradicts that, states that all mankind is “condemned already”. Some folks might not be sure either way yet still defend not believing in God, why? “condemned already”. Now I’ve made an assertion, how could I convey the accuracy of my claim? Well one thing I could do would be to ask you to honestly consider this. Why is it so important for you to discredit God? If He is not real, why bother to even think of it? Do you seek to discredit Santa Claus with the same level of enthusiasm? The Easter bunny? Obviously not, the difference is that you know they are not real. So what is it that God has placed in us that knows, intuitively at some level within our being, that He exists?
Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart Eccl 3:11
I am going to save what God has done for the last post and will explain that later, so this marks the end of the first section of my reply to your comment.
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January 24, 2017 at 09:31
This next section may be a bit more difficult because of the vast amount of information involved. However I will try to make it easily digestible.
“From what we know about the Bible and many older religions, I do not have any belief in the Bible to hold many truths at all, therefore I consider it as inconsistent especially when you consider it has many hundreds of translations that are interpreted by many apologetics who often argue between themselves in a futile attempt to maintain credibility for believers. ”
First off, the other religious books I do not hold in any high regard. They may be useful for comparing histories to some degree, but do not have the same inspiration. In my first post regarding yours, I stated that the Bible was assembled by several individuals. However I didn’t say the one author who inspired it all, God Himself. He instructed man what to write. It is His message to us. You also mentioned you do not hold the Bible in any high regard, but you base that on your belief, based on what you do know of it. I am thankful God has had the Bible written in hundreds of languages, many will come to know Him as a result of that and God will be honored because of it. You see, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance, that word simply means having a change of heart about sin, changing our mind and following Him. Now as far as apologetics, arguing to maintain credibility, That’s a bit farfetched. 🙂 Do apologetics argue? Heh heh, probably. Does that impact credibility of the Bible for me? Not a bit, you know why? Because I know Him. Let’s say a friend of yours tells you your wife is being unfaithful to you. Now depending on your relationship, It will either worry you or not. Since no one knows your wife like you, I suspect you dismiss the allegations because you know her. Now humans aren’t perfect, and it is possible to have an unfaithful spouse, but in the case of God, He will never leave us or forsake us. My last thought on this section has to do with the intent of the heart. There is no way for us to know without being told what is in another mans heart. So while you state the apologetics argue to maintain credibility, you have no way to know that much less prove it.
I’ll try to get more of these sections today as well to finish in an appropriate manner.
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January 24, 2017 at 10:25
Section 3
“I ask you what atrocity is worse than killing men women and children? If you had the ultimate power attributed to most of the gods throughout history including Yahweh, having people butchered with swords and fire, floods, diseases or any earthly system seems to be at odds with the most powerful person who can create the complete universe but cannot change the actions of his creations when in retrospect he is supposed to be able to control everyone and everything considering he is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent.”
Killing men, women, and children, hmmm, tough one, you would have to go to each individual case to see what they had done to deserve it. What’s worse? The first death is rough, but the second death is a real killer… The first death is painful, but the second one is far more painful, and never ends. Many will use this fact to say if God is good why would He send anyone there. God cannot have sin in His presence, and He prepared hell for the angels that disobeyed. He didn’t prepare a place for man to go if man chose to reject Him. I believe the reason was because, “He is not willing that any should perish”. Now, how long is eternity? I have heard some good illustrations so I cant claim this as my own, but it effectively allows us to comprehend it a bit better.
Imagine you have entered into a terrible place of pain and suffering, you are told that you will be there for eternity. You can see in the distance a mountain, every 1000 years a dove flies over it carrying a white piece of cloth, the cloth brushes the top of the mountain as it flies past. This occurs every 1000 years. When the mountain is completely worn down flat from the cloth brushing it, eternity will have just started…
In the gospel of Luke the 16th chapter, we read of a man who went to hell, he was a rich man but had no interest in God. He says something illuminating though, He said to send someone to his brothers, so they would not “come” to this place. Come is a word that indicates volition on the part of the individual, they “chose” to go there by there own decisions they made. Even the rich man acknowledged this while he was in hell, unfortunately for him, he’s still there. There is no escape. I say this is far worse.
God gave man, the authority to choose, free will. If He was to step in to control it, would it still be free will? The problems you stated are all the result of our fallen nature, sin. Have you ever noticed in our court systems, a common strategy to evade punishment is to attack the credibility of the accusers, in the hopes that a favorable verdict can be reached. Do you think man tactics change much when it is God’s Word that condemns us. Even if the question was voted on and overwhelmingly passed that the Bible isn’t true, do you honestly think that somehow would negate what God is going to do? We chose to have our own way and we got it, now we want to blame the results of those actions on God…
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January 24, 2017 at 14:09
Last section (paragraph 4)
“Your God will never lie to you and you will find truth and wisdom in the Bible that I will never doubt. What is true and real for you is emotionally generated within a spiritual domain that is personal and works for your reality. Life was and never will be a bed of roses no matter what your belief system is, however I can honestly say I would have a variation of the same no worries and contentment as you specify, we just go about it in a different way. Having said this, I would also say that to put this in context we live in a western type democracy that has food and medicine.”
Absolutely true, God will never lie to me, he hates lying. He has always blessed me with His Truth and Wisdom. However I find it odd that you do not doubt this, if you truly believe that I will find it without a doubt, yet have no confidence that anything in it is true or worthy of belief, it doesn’t seem to add up, unless you believe that I am deluded. And that’s fine, I don’t mind.
Your right about the bed of roses, God never promised us that. What He has promised us though is that He would be with us through the troubles. That, has been my experience.You see I can argue about the validity of God’s Word, till I’m blue in the face, That problem is you do not see the same things that I do. God considered this problem and came up with a way to describe it to you so that you might have another frame of reference to consider. He called it one word, “Testimony”. So what is a testimony? Simply put it is the life experiences of that person. Your frame of reference is that you don’t believe the Bible, assuming it’s not just because of a bias against God’s Word, but because you hadn’t conversed or known the people written about, I will give you another frame of reference, my own life. I can tell you what He has done, for me. Now I have heard many men’s testimonies throughout my life, They will tell you have they were convicted of sin and How they came to know Him. That part of my life is about the same, I was convicted, and eventually gave in to God. I got the better end of the deal. So these are some of the things I faced, it’s my life. Now you can choose not to believe that they are true, but for the record, I will only convey truth.
I’ve been married now for 36 years, when we first got married, we went with my sister and her family to a nearby lake for a picnic. There was a picnic table there but no fire pit, so I created one with some large rocks. We were cooking our meal when a policeman came and said we were burning in violation of the law since there wasn’t a provided fire pit, and he informed us he had to give us a ticket. So I took responsibility and took the ticket. Well I made it a matter of prayer and asked the Lord to take care of it. Well, one of my brothers in law laughed when I said I believed that the Lord was going to take care of it for me. Mind you he is a Christian also. Heh heh, why would I tell you that part? Because I told you I would tell you the truth. Life is raw and even Christians are not always in the will of God. I went to court, and my case was not the first, so I got to see first hand how things were going for those who were there that day. I thought, this judge is pretty lenient, he was letting folks off pretty easy. So my turn came, and I was quite surprised to hear him say, guilty. Well, with that I had no alternative but to pay the fine, which I did before I left the courthouse. I really felt let down. About two weeks later, the courthouse sent me a letter, they said they could find no record of the violation and were sending my check back, it was enclosed in the same letter.
Shortly after getting married, perhaps two or three years, my father in law had a heart attack. We were at the hospital and he asked me if I would do him a favor. I didn’t know what he would ask so I asked him what he wanted. he said, Would you take care of Jim (his youngest son) he has no sense, and his brothers don’t care for him. Now I knew Jim was a handful, there was no way I was going to let him live with me or to be legally responsible for him. I told him, I would do what I could, and so I have for the last 30 plus years. It hasn’t been easy, Jim has real problems, he is a complete narcissist, has absolutely no consideration for anyone other than himself, he feels the world owes him. He would call us for rides at 2 and 3 in the morning, when the bars closed, sometimes we would help him out and give him a ride, but even if we didn’t, it still broke up the night’s sleep and was frustrating. One time I went out, he was out in the country somewhere and I found him, had to do a fireman’s carry to get him in the car as he was passed out. He would come and harass his mother (when she lived nearby) for money on an almost daily basis. Before she passed away she stayed with us for about two years, I wanted to do something to spare her, but she would have none of it. I could not even deny him the right to come to visit legally because she was his mother. One day he came over and I heard it but did nothing but it filled me with rage, he was mocking his mother, “Quit shuffling your feet around and wagging your tongue in your mouth, you look like a retard.” It cut me like a knife, he left and she was crying at the kitchen table, I heard her pray, “Lord, please take me home” I felt like crying inside, I was so angry. I swore to myself, that would not happen again. He came over a few nights later, and started in again. I asked him to leave and he got in my face and started screaming at the top of his lungs at me, I pushed him away as he was right in my face. He came at me again, I had never seen such hate in someones eyes before, I hit him, hard. That stopped him, and he left and then called the police. They of course had to give me a ticket for assault. Well, rightly so, of course I made it a matter of prayer, I also spoke with the men in my church about and asked that they prayed as well, plus I contacted other Christians I know and asked them to pray. The police suggested that I go talk with the prosecuting district attorney. So I went to the courthouse to have a conversation with him. His receptionist said he wasn’t available but I could write him a note that she would give him. So I spent the next hour drafting an inquiry to him, I asked at the end if this could be taken care of. But I never heard back. The day came to go to court, so my wife and I prayed and went to the courthouse. So I was at the window where they hand you the charges against you but she wasn’t finding it, so she went to the next pile of papers and found mine, It basically said, the District Attorney has decided not to pursue charges at this time.
I learned a lot in that instance and despite my poor behavior, God intervened on my behalf. He is always faithful. Because He has promised to take care of us, it’s dependent on on His faithfulness, not ours. And He can’t lie.
Well from here it only goes downhill… Jim was on section 8 housing and lost it, so he became homeless, this was about a year ago, maybe a little more. My wife informed me we might have to put him up a while, while he found a place. I responded that he was not going to live with us. Well, two days later she brought him in, that was a bit hard to swallow. But it’s her brother, I could understand her feelings. Well, before I could figure out how to rectify the problem he had mail sent to him here at my address so he could establish his residency. In the state of Oregon, where I’m at now, you cannot kick someone out of a dwelling if they can prove they live there, via mail, etc… I was stuck. Well it just so happened my brother was going to Michigan and asked if I wanted to go along, (I have a farm next to his in Michigan) So I went, I thought it’ll be good to get away from this for awhile. I was there a week when I got a call from my wife. She informed me that Jim had gotten mad and after she went to sleep he let the dogs out, opened all the doors in the house and garage, car doors, etc… and then took off. When my wife woke up, they were nowhere to be found, eventually our dogs were found and taken care of till we got them back. I flew home the next day, Jim was subdued for a week or so, then one day asked my wife for a ride to town, she said no, but he kept badgering her, eventually she relented. She told me she was going to give him 10 dollars. I told her it wasn’t a good idea. Well she did, and told him she would give him a ride to town but she wouldn’t come to pick him up, he would have too find his own way home. So she gives him the ride, 20 min later he wants a ride home and calls her, she says no. He calls again, she says no, He calls again, this time I answer, I tell him, Jim, you agreed to this, quit calling. I end the call, he calls again, again my wife answers and tells him no. He says” Fine, then I’m going to take this money and get drunk and then come home. he was true to his word, at about midnight he gets in and cranks his radio on full blast. My wife goes out and turns it down and comes back to bed, well it instantly goes back up. I tell her, let it go, he’ll get tired of it eventually. Well, she can’t leave it alone. Again she turns it down, again he turns it up. She goes out again, now she has an antique sewing machine that he was busily throwing all of its drawers on the floor, emptying their contents, the last drawer doesn’t come out completely and he was trying to break it off by twisting it sideways, She tried to push him away from it before he broke it. So he calls the police and we have a whole swat team arrive. You see he told them that I had guns in the house so even though his beef was with my wife he tried to include me in it. So it was a drawn out affair and the police eventually left. The next few months were tough but I still wouldn’t trade them for anything. You see, God was teaching me something, I had taken to living in my bedroom to stay away from him. It was hard, he would sleep all day, never looking for a place, staying up all night, you could hear him wandering the house at night. He received SSI but never contributed anything, his money was to party with, it was more important to him than having a place to live. The food in our house as far as he was concerned was his, we basically ate whatever was left. That’s fine, I didn’t starve. While I was living in my bedroom, I would think of the things I hated about him. The Lord would bring to my remembrance, “Yes, but do you remember when you did such and such, no difference.” Now don’t get me wrong, I didn’t hear voices. 🙂 But these are the thoughts that came to me while I was contemplating it all. I realized even though Jim took things to a much larger degree than I did, I was still just as guilty as he was. The Bible say “As face answers to face in water, so the heart of man to man.” We all have this heart problem, it’s common to man. My perspective sharpened. He was here for 7 months, seemed like an eternity. At some point, I cried out to God, and asked Him to deliver me. It wasn’t long after, perhaps a few days that He answered. When Feb 26,2016 arrived Jim hadn’t come home for the night, and at 6:30 A.M. he called, he didn’t know where he was, he had a six pack but his fingers were to cold to open any. About a half hour later he came in, drunk and obstinate. Started screaming at my wife, and threatened to kill me. Well I told Ruth lets go to the bedroom, we did because we have a lock on the door. Well, he followed us and tried to force his way in before I could get the door locked. I got off balance and had my leg trapped between the bedroom door and a set of drawers. He was pushing hard on it, but I had nothing to put my back against to push the door shut, I asked him 3 times to quit pushing, my leg hurt quite a bit. However he did not, he has his head just in front of me and I had a free right hand, I clenched my fist, his face was an inviting target. I then relaxed, I wasn’t going to make the same mistake. So I started to drag my leg free, this took my pressure off of the door and he started to come in. Then God took over, I watch as he came through the door, I saw one ankle go behind the other and down he went. We were able then to push him back a little to get the door closed, before it closed I saw him stagger back about 8 feet, very slowly like it was happening in slow motion, up against the wall and then fall again on the floor. I closed and locked the door. After about 4 minutes, I heard nothing, so I decided to see what was going on. I stepped out into the rest of the house and didn’t see him anywhere. I then heard knocking at the door, I went to the door slowly to peek out the window on it. It was a policeman, so I opened the door and he was saying, “Didn’t you hear us?” I told him we had holed up in the back bedroom and hadn’t heard anything, well they already had him in handcuffs. Apparently they had followed him around town, he had been going through folks mailboxes and stuff like that. He the called them to say that I had assaulted him, pushed him down and hurt his leg. I laughed and told the policeman what had happened and he indicated he thought it was like that. Well, while we were talking, this was in my living room, I saw my printer on the floor, he’d thrown a few things around destroyed my printer and keyboard, ripped all of the caps off of it. So i was encouraged to get a restraining order on him and was able to do that. Well I was reading in Proverbs that day 26:24-27
24 Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips
and harbors deceit in his heart;
25 when he speaks graciously, believe him not,
for there are seven abominations in his heart;
26 though his hatred be covered with deception,
his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it,
and a stone will come back on him who starts it rolling.
It seemed conclusive enough, but the Lord did not finish telling me what He had done till the next day. You see there are times I will read a chapter that corresponds to the calendar date and I was doing this the next day on the 27th, and was reading in Psalms, so lets see what the Lord told me.
1 The LORD is my light and my salvation;
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life;
of whom shall I be afraid?
2 When evildoers assail me
to eat up my flesh,
my adversaries and foes,
it is they who stumble and fall.
You see sir, the act of falling was what my brother in law called the police on me for. Do you suppose God could get any more specific than this? This is a continuing saga, he is still homeless, however I have seen to it that he has cloths that will keep him warm, and we make sure he has something to eat when he’s broke… As I said, Christian life is raw, we not only deal with others, but also ourselves. You can contest the Bible all you wish, you can say God doesn’t do anything, you can’t however contest my life, this is what I have experienced, you can choose not to believe it, but I’ve experienced it. Whether you believe me or not all of this happened and much more, You can tell me those are coincidences, but I have only told you a fraction of the things I have seen Him do, and the prayers He has answered. At some point, since you like things to be scientific, does the law of averages step in and say, no coincidence here if your prayers have been answered 100% of the time? You want proof, there it is if you will accept it. It is possible that the Lord afflicted me for your sake as well as mine, to show someone who was interested in whether or not there was any power to the Christian life and whether it was valid. God has been faithful to me, and I am thankful for that. Perhaps you will consider what He offers you, it cost Him His life to provide it for you.
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January 25, 2017 at 20:33
Ambassadorslog, Glad you survived the birthday party, and I have tried to consolidate this reply to all your recent blogs.
On the question of Biblical documents, they have been subjected to alteration many times over thousands of years and that much has generally been established and accepted by theologians.
Bart Ehrman wrote “Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later-much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places . . . Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts and there are words in the New Testament.”
The reference to the Bible written for controlling man as I have suggested obviously would not be written into documents designed for such a purpose. Nobody wants to believe they have been manipulated to believe such things by man, however if they believe they are the words of an unseen all powerful God that will guide and control their lives into another eternal life it is a totally different story. Take a look at the Quran for example, the influence it has today on Muslims is similar of the passion and control the Bible generated for early Christians where they went on murderous rampages in the name of the Lord.
Reality we know can be perceived differently by individuals and therefore traditional thinking and normal processes can change because society has embraced a different view or ideology that is generally more beneficial for us as people or as a community and is part of our human nature. This includes the rejection of many unsavoury Biblical scriptures such as ancient punishments, slavery banishment and the treatment of homosexuals. These changes are often motivated by our advanced understanding of our fellow man including the human sciences such as biology and psychology.
You suggest “Just because you can’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.” Reality in scientific terms is that it cannot exist unless it is quantifiable in some shape or form Just as space- time now is known to exist not from speculation but sound observation. Because a book tells you that something exists also does not make it true.
Humans have always had this inherent belief for gods from primitive man due to his need for an understanding as to why the sun rose every morning and why the volcano wiped out his village. He decided these events must have been controlled by a powerful force and as he wanted to improve the quality of his life he worshiped invented human or animal type gods. These gods were sacred to these ancient people as any god is today by appearing to be realistic and productive to the worshippers.
Yes, I do believe God helps you, just as I believe he helped my father who never admitted it but was weakened from some of the stresses in life and he gained strength through his religion and this is a good thing. I read your story with great interest and thank you for sharing it with me. It does however appear to me that Jim should have had psychiatric help much earlier before he ended up on the street and because he has put you and your wife through something no one should have to endure and I am sorry you did, but thankfully he did not kill anybody.
The fact is, I have heard similar stories from many Christians from a headache or ear infection to the close calls of death. Strangely enough these same stories are applicable to all people not just Christians. Random events, good and bad luck or to whatever it may be attributed happens to all of us across the board. Tell me why God would save you a couple of police fines and then trip up Jim in the doorway to help your situation when he could use his awesome power to make a real God like statement by saving 20 thousand African children from dying of hunger for that day?
Put this in this context and it is ridiculous at best, or is the logical explanation possible, that the natural path of events came with some if not many coincidences, good and bad luck and possibly some good and bad decisions like all events do? Do you not realise that you are finding every day events that we vulnerable too, to claim they are acts of God and even when disaster or bad things happen you find reasons to claim God is teaching you a lesson?
You and I are exactly the same, we both have a powerful brain where science is still uncovering its secrets. Both of our brains are subject to our subconscious and the experimentation is showing that we may think our conscious minds control our brain and our free will, however, that does not support the results that researchers have found. Many influences in our lives manifest in our subconscious that has a profound effect on emotions, behaviours, decision making and beliefs and this is where your God really exists. This must be a delusion; however, it is not really your fault
My purpose for discrediting all religions in our world is to save people, particularly the children. I have always thought by manipulating the minds of children by indoctrination into an ideology is removing their God given right (excuse the pun) to decide for themselves and even though some religions have some good aspects for society I strongly believe the evidence that indicates all gods are only the invention of primitive man is more than overwhelming.
Regards to you and thank you Wally for allowing this conversation.
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January 25, 2017 at 20:51
Steve
Contrary to the way you paint me, I have no issue with conversations on this blog.
I just don’t have time to chase you around in nonsensical circles.
Even now, your comment frankly is incoherent and makes little sense. Hence, I don’t fear it.
Again, you comment is full on allegations, and opinions supported by nothing more than thin air.
Bart Erhman. Yeah ok. One source? Nice back up there Steve. His saying something only makes it true in your mind because he echos the sentiment you have already decided is true.
Let’s break down some of your allegations shall we? One at time
Again, substantiate you claim that the Bible was written with the intent of controlling people. I need sources, documents, witnesses. That sort of thing.
You accuse my friend of being delusional? Prove that. And watch your mouth by the way. One more sideways insult like that and you will in fact be moderated. That your opponent is a stupid argument.
Explain to me in a way that makes sense why teaching children religion is indoctrination, but teaching them a secular humanist world view is “teaching” Wait, no answer needed. That answer is because that’s your view. Got it.
Look, Steve, stop the nonsensical rambles, address the comments made to you with something other than what comes from your own head, or I will cut this off.
Your clearly stated objective has been clearly stated by you above, in your own comment. I don’t have to allow that, and I wont.
This is simple
Answer the comments put to you
Quit rambling endlessly in your atheist sermons
Back up your allegations with some facts
Quite using the fact that the person you are talking to is mentally deficient as you main argument
Is that pretty clear? I hope so, because I am tired of you for the most part, Steve
Meet my conditions or go away.
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January 26, 2017 at 00:12
I only thanked you Wally, please explain how you take that as an insult?
First of all, I wrote: “This must be a delusion; however, it is not really your fault “this was a tongue in cheek comment with a smiley face with dots and a bracket that did not print on wordpress. I do not think this will be taken as an insult by anyone apart from you.
Some people do believe the bible was written to control people or just plain fraudulent.
Edit: Again, I hate to edit. Links removed for lack of documentation and sources. If the post writer is going to be criticized for not providing sources and such commenters can’t be allowed to either.
And this,
If we examine the oldest known Bible to date, the “Sinai Bible” housed in the British Museum (I believe that, during his many years of research, Tony had a private viewing of this priceless book), we find a staggering 14,800 differences from today’s Bible and yet it still remains the word of God? Read more here:
Can you claim the Bible is the divine word of God when you cannot produce any sources, documents and witnesses?
Teaching young children an ideology in a repetitious manner such as religion or political doctrine as the North Koreans do today is called indoctrination. Look up any dictionary, I have quoted it for you before now.
indoctrination
noun
the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
“I would never subject children to religious indoctrination”
archaic
teaching; instruction.
“methods that were approved for indoctrination in divinity”
Additionally, I do not explain to a class of 8-year-old children or to my teenage daughter to explain God is not real and read them passages from atheist books, nor would I take these children into a special building to worship an atheist god or sing atheist and anti-God songs. You really do surprise me with your lack of understanding of a simple recognised fact.
You claim “Quite using the fact that the person you are talking to is mentally deficient as you main argument” “Quit” I think is what you mean, and I have not claimed or suggested anyone is mentally deficient. Ambassadorslog is nothing less than a gentleman. Edit: Yes, quit is what I meant. Funny I was corrected on that typo just before a denial the commenter thinks Christians are mentally deficient.
Ok Wally, you must have seen a lot of alternative sense in my “nonsensical ramblings” for you to get so upset. I just roll along with the alternative views out in the world that you and many of your readers are not aware of and that is a real shame.
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January 25, 2017 at 21:17
You cannot understand the things of God if you are not a Christian. God designed it that way.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14.
I am sorry you do not choose to take what God offers you, but that is your choice, God will not force you. However you will never forget the offer He made you thoughout eternity. He loves you and died for you, but it will do no good if you don’t accept Him as Lord and Savior. You are articulate but you’re passing on the best offer anyone will ever make to you. Please reconsider, for your own sake. Since you choose to embrace your own ideas instead of listening to God, there’s not much left for me to say. Again it’s your choice, but for your sake, I hope you change it.
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January 26, 2017 at 05:07
I do not understand how you have such a closed mind. You believe that I do not understand and if I am not a Christian it is because God designed it that way, just like most of the world is not Christian and most worship a different god simply because that is their culture. Can you not see the irrationality of such a statement?
I do not see any proof that your God is the real god or that any god exists outside your own mind. Nothing on this earth has convinced me for over 60 years that any super powerful God exists. Science explains life and understands enough to know what part of the brain your saviour exists in. I would like you to read about a man who spent most of his life as a Christian preacher.
Edit: I hate to edit a comment. Link deleted for sheer irrelevance to the comment. Atheist again, trying to prove “deconverts” have some special smarts.
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January 26, 2017 at 09:49
You know Steve, I too was once like you. I did not understand the things of God. It’s not a matter of comprehending the words and understanding what the words mean, it’s a viewpoint we have been given by God so that we might understand the things of God. This is only given when the Holy Spirit takes possession of us, when we initially submit to Him. He becomes our comforter and guide.
If I left a burning building and you tried to convince me I was imagining it, to get me to go back inside, If I refused, would you still call me “closed minded”? You do not believe in the judgement that’s coming, how I wish I could persuade you. Our God is a consuming fire, He judges by fire, all of the works of my life will be tested by fire, if my motives were wrong, those acts will be burnt up. God also imprisons by fire, Hell, then ultimately the Lake of Fire. He will also cleanse the universe by fire. Is it so important for you, to not give in to God, that you’re willing to throw away, any forgiveness from Him, and the blessings you would have received throughout eternity? It’s ok to be closed minded about things you know to be true. I suspect you feel the same, after all, you think you’re right, and you haven’t changed your mind.
There is a principle in the Bible, about list of things, typically it will go one of two ways, If you have a list the first item may be the most the next a little less, etc… or it can start with the least and work to the most. There is a list in Revelation, I will start with the 7th verse.
Rev 21:7-8 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Look at the list in verse 8, the largest percentage of those in The Lake of Fire are the cowardly, those who are afraid to associate with the Lord Jesus Christ because of the reproach they will have to bear. The second on the list are “the faithless” This is the group you fit into, Steve, I don’t need to know any of the rest of the list, as it pertains to you, without faith, it is impossible to please God. You don’t believe it, you have no faith in it. Don’t be foolish Steve, God provided a way out for you, take what He offers, He doesn’t want you to perish, and neither do I.
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January 26, 2017 at 17:49
Ambassador, I believe the Holly Spirit may not be exactly what you think it is. You have undergone a huge emotional experience and an adjusted mind to absorb this ideology. I am not saying this is a bad thing, you obviously depend on your religious doctrine within all aspects of your life and it provides as a motivator and confidence provider for you as an individual just like it did for my father.
I am very aware of mind altering and manipulation techniques, illusionists and magicians have used them for years, and more seriously by the Russians and the Chinese communists under the Maoist government in China. Mind control that is also known as re-education and thought control is a controversial scientific theory that human subjects can be indoctrinated in a way that causes an impairment of autonomy, an inability to think independently, a disruption of beliefs and affiliations. In this context it refers to the involuntary re-education of basic beliefs and values.
I do not believe in a judgement coming from God because there is no evidence any gods exist and this judgement has been predicted to happen many times over thousands of years by many noble people. However, it is more feasible that we will experience full on contact with one or more other life forms in our not too distant future, and who knows what that will bring.
Heaven and hell, I believe are merely concepts with hell and fire often kindled by the old master’s paintings.
I am not intimidated or frightened by your words like so many and especially the young can be of burning for eternity in hell because I understand it is just a tool used for the purposes of taking control of the mind. Faith through fear will always contribute to believing in something that does not exist. I thank you for your concern for my fate, however this concern is reciprocal.
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January 26, 2017 at 18:12
“You have undergone a huge emotional experience and an adjusted mind to absorb this ideology.”
I think we will break this down into some bite sized pieces, Steve, so perhaps the chance of you choking on your words is slimmer
That statement was a clear assertion on your part. You assertion is clearly…well..what you said.
I’d like you to prove that assertion that you have just made about Ambassador. Can you identify the exact time and so forth that this supposed emotional event occurred or even when the “adjustment” in his mind occurred?
You have stated as FACT that this occurred. I challenge you to back your assertion with some empirical data.
If you fail to do that, you prove beyond any doubt that…you are simply another atheist blowhard spouting whatever you want to say, true or not.
As your peers like to say:
Ready, set, go.
Again, allow me to be crystal clear. Back this assertion, concerning the individual you have made it about, or your comments on this thread are over. What do I mean by that? Put away the sweeping generalizations and address the very specific assertion, you have made about a very specific individual.
Anything other than that will be promptly deleted, as I am tired of providing you a pulpit to preach your Godlessness.
Do it…or bye.
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January 26, 2017 at 21:23
Editor’s note
Comment deleted
Failure to respond
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January 26, 2017 at 21:26
See that?
You made a specific assertion about a specific person
Back
It
Up
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January 27, 2017 at 03:37
That’s it Wally you have won your little game.
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January 26, 2017 at 23:23
Thanks for your concern Steve, you know were not getting too far, so let me Just add this in closing. If you think I’m deluded that’s fine, I really don’t mind. Even if I was, I have enjoyed my life, If I was wrong, I would have no regrets. But I also know I’m not, God has proven Himself over and over to me. Now consider the unthinkable, you missed it, you were wrong, you attacked God and those who believed in Him your entire life, how do you suppose God will deal with that? Unless you repent, God will judge you. Repent while God’s offer is available to you, neglect it and you will suffer the wrath of God.
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January 27, 2017 at 03:33
Do you remember writing “It doesn’t seem to add up, unless you believe that I am deluded. And that’s fine, I don’t mind” This was a comment you made to me sometime earlier and I responded with “You are deluded; however, it is not your fault ” with what was a smiley face as I did not mean to offend. The meaning of deluded is nothing more than been fooled, misled, deceived, tricked etc. It is hardly the offensive remark it is made out to be by Wally. If you are upset about it I apologise and I wish you the best. I doubt I will be allowed to discuss anything more on this site with you.
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January 27, 2017 at 10:24
Heh heh, fear not Steve, I took no offense.. 🙂 From your frame of reference I’m sure think me deluded, misled. But you know the Bible says you will think this of believers.
1 Cor 1:21 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Do you realize that every Christian will be rewarded for what they have endured here on earth? When I have been ridiculed, I consider it an honor, to suffer embarrassment, or even worse. It will bring Him glory, can I do less? He died for me. For me it’s an opportunity to shine for Him. 🙂
On another topic, I had an answer to prayer yesterday that might be of interest to you. I was sitting in the bathroom yesterday morning, and asked the Lord what I should do about the restraining order that’s running out next month. I left it with Him. My wife yesterday tried to give her brother help and out of the blue he he got violently angry say, Mark is dead, over and over. Now it’s interesting that he hadn’t said that for over a year but did the exact same day that I asked the Lord to give me an answer to my predicament. I know, you will consider this a “coincidence” but the irony is, when prayer stops, so do the coincidences.. 🙂 I’m guess from what you’ve told me that your father felt comfort in knowing Him before He passed. You know if I was able to converse with Him, I bet He would ask me to pray for you, hoping you would eventually submit to God. I’m sure you loved him, thing is he will live forever and he will receive a new body, this time to never die again. He would love to spend some of that time and enjoyment with you. But of course, that’s up to you.
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January 27, 2017 at 16:54
Thank you for confirming you did not take offence ambassador, Wally assumed you had and has as you can read he does not like most of my atheist comments anyway and has started to regulate them, therefore I am unable to respond honestly to what you have said. It was very interesting while it lasted and good luck to you.
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January 27, 2017 at 17:05
Steve
I never said I thought Ambassador was offended.
You made an assertion of fact. I challenged it. You declined to support your assertion, but piled my blog up with yet more links from unsupported sources.
You “regulated” yourself
My advice to you, Steve, would be to start a blog, where you can operate with complete impunity, as that would be your place…rather like this is my place.
Cool how that works. Good luck to you as well
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January 27, 2017 at 17:18
Well thank you, I do however rely on the Lord as you probably have observed by now. Luck is not quite as reliable.. 🙂 I do understand your sentiment to me though, and thank you for it. May God, allow you to perceive Him and soften your heart to receive Him. As you can see, I also wish you the best.
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January 20, 2017 at 09:08
And anger, check this out
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Anger-Of-God,-Consequences
Deuteronomy 9:8
Verse Concepts
“Even at Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, and the LORD was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you.
Exodus 15:7
Verse Concepts
“And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You; You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff.
Exodus 32:10-11
“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.” Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Numbers 11:1-2
Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the LORD and the fire died out.
Job 4:9
“By the breath of God they perish, And by the blast of His anger they come to an end.
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January 20, 2017 at 12:17
Wow you can Google
Impressive
I never God doesn’t get angry
Never
.
Your assertion is God kills simply out of anger
That is untrue
Bye Steve
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January 20, 2017 at 17:22
Well I think you must now have to realise that there are many other opinions out there Wally, not just mine. Some web site information is what you call garbage and this may be true for you, but it is simply your opinion. I also believe my assumption is warranted, for example these quotes are pretty clear that he gets angry enough to kill. As you do not agree, what then is your opinion on these examples below?
“You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff.”
“and the LORD was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you.”
“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them;”
“His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.”
“By the breath of God they perish, And by the blast of His anger they come to an end.”
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January 20, 2017 at 17:34
OK..honest question Steve.
Have you actually taken the time to read the full accounts in which those passages are found? Seriously. Or are you just doing a search for “anger”
I have never denied God feel anger. I not even denied He does in fact execute judgment. Often that judgment involves the death of those He judges. It’s all there, clearly, in His Word.
In light of the comment to which we are all talking too….God feels many emotions. As do we. Anger, joy, love, disappointment. Any emotion we as humans feel, God feels also.
But no passage from the Bible stands alone…all is found in context.
So, I ask you again. Have you read and studied those things you quoted with in:
The context of the story in which they appear?
The context of the overall narrative of The Bible itself?
The context of the history, culture, and even language in which they appear?
If you have…then surely you understand that God’s anger never stands alone, and is never like ours…random or capricious.
If you have not..then you need to. Because if you have not, then you are attempting to speak to something you don’t understand.
Steve, you have to understand. Every word I say, speak, or teach, is based on what the Bible teaches.
No more, no less.
So, unless you are prepared to discuss the narrative of The Book itself, than this is overall pretty useless.
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January 20, 2017 at 19:24
Seriously Wally, I understand we have different views as to the context of these passages.
I will not ask you to read or study the pages of Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species” to understand a passage regarding evolution that you will disagree with, or the book on Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity to put my views of homosexuality in context.
If I can produce a section directly contrary to the passage quoted I will, however the subject of anger we are discussing cannot be easily disguised, misunderstood or taken out of context. God, you will point out is predominantly a loving and forgiving God and this I do not deny because the passages are quite clear on this, as they are about his anger.
You are basically saying if I am not prepared to study the bible and discuss the narrative of the book I do not understand what I am saying. I do not deny you understand the Bible better than I, however I do not need to be an expert on Shakespeare’s writing to comment on a part a of his play, however I would be happy to have the explanation from an expert if he can clearly show me the area of misunderstanding.
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January 20, 2017 at 19:39
“You are basically saying if I am not prepared to study the bible and discuss the narrative of the book I do not understand what I am saying”
Finally, you said something that is 100 percent correct. Well done.
That is a fact. If you refuse to read the Book in it’s context and within it’s narrative, you are in fact not prepared or capable of discussing it.
Be careful with all that hubris you are filled with, as you may explode from it at any minute.
Peace out Steve.
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January 20, 2017 at 20:01
Well that answer makes it so very easy for you Wally. It is no wonder that the Bible is not taken as a serious historical account, why the people are walking away from it and that many Christian denominations have been created from it.
Peace to you to Wally.
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January 20, 2017 at 20:19
Steve
Rest assured, I am not the reason for people’s rejection of the Bible. That would sure be some hubris on my part LOL. I am also hardly the reason why people walk away with faith.
Look, Steve, I am all for a serious discussion of the issues you raise. If you want one, we can have it.
But your refusal to put any more time into the study of what you so freely critique than a google search limits adult discussion. If you don’t bother to read what you critique, all you have to do is make things up about it…all of which are untrue and bear no real relationship to what is written there?
In brief. In every single instance where God executed judgment, it was only after repeated offers of forgiveness and restoration had been made to those He was angry at. THAT is why you need context. Why were they ultimately judged? They rejected and thumbed their nose in God’s face.
Just
Like
You.
You want to hear about God’s love? I’ll tell you something about God’s love, my friend.
It’s for you also. For Steve. Despite your flailing, rejection and insults. Right now, this very instant, God loves you enough to forgive you for it all.
But, you ignore all of that Steve. All you can focus on is anger, anger, anger. And even then you can’t place the anger within the context of it being quite well warranted on His part.
But, now, as then…all anyone had to do to quench that anger is repent, turn from their own ways….and to Him.
Do it Steve. Surely you know that is why The Holy Spirit draws you to Christian blogs…LOL surely you don’t think you will make anybody shut up. The last two years with me and you should illustrate that. You are here because you have been drawn. The Holy Spirit is drawing you, Steve, I believe that with all of my heart.
Give it up Steve. God is calling. You will sure be a lot happier if you just surrender.
🙂
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January 21, 2017 at 01:32
Wally, I am not so wet behind the ears that I did not understand that your defence of God’s judgement would involve those repeated offers of forgiveness and restoration. However, even if this is included as a defence, the issue is he still showed a human anger generated against certain people.
You can take a stand with a John Piper founder and teacher of desiringGod.org of course: “It’s right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die.”
This will trivialise the anger issue as it is God’s right to take his own children’s lives whenever he wants to, angry or not. This seems to qualify all reasons for human death if I am not mistaken.
I am unable and unwilling to force myself to love this man who says he loves me but may just decide to kill me, and it must be simple to see why. I am drawn to Christian blogs because I truly feel I can help you and your friends Wally to realise how you have been manipulated by the religious system.
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January 21, 2017 at 06:09
“You can take a stand with a John Piper founder and teacher of desiringGod.org of course:”
Steve, first….don’t quote other people with the very strong hint that what a person said is in fact my stand.
Honestly, that makes you look like you are either lying or slow to understand.
We seem to be road blocked by the fact that you just clearly ascribed words to me that I never said.
I’m very disappointed that you have had to resort to this, Steve
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January 21, 2017 at 09:26
What would I be lying about Wally? I apologise for assuming you would take the same stand as Piper but strongly feel that you have very little choice because as you have stated “Every word I say, speak, or teach, is based on what the Bible teaches.” The Bible often confirms his power to produce life and take it away with or without anger. I will quote some passages as I believe you understand these better than most but please correct me if I am wrong.
Job 1:21 He said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there; the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
1 Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.”
Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I, I am he, and there is no god besides me; it is I who put to death and give life I have wounded and it is I who heal, and there is no one who can deliver from my hand.”
Exodus 22:24 “My anger will be kindled, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless.”
Luke 19:27 “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”
Job 33:4 “The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”
Isaiah 57:16 “For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of those whom I have made.”
Best wishes and good night.
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January 21, 2017 at 09:53
That’s the funny thing Steve; I never said I disagreed either with that position
My problem with your entire presentation is your complete ignoring of the full context of things that are said. Yep John Piper said that. I in fact agree that God indeed has the right to conduct things on His Earth exactly as He sees fit. He made it; it’s His.
But, if you bothered to present the totality of even Piper’s presentation, restoration and forgiveness is available.
Same thing I said.
Your choice. Both are freely available to you, friend.
Judgment
Or
Forgiveness.
It’s NOT God’s fault if you choose to reject. You may not like the offer, as it is not on YOUR terms.
Guess what? You don’t get to define the terms. God does.
Take it or leave it. He extends is, and what you do with it is up to you.
You like wise have a good night, and may your night be restless and sleepless as you ponder what you know to be truth and wrestle so strongly against.
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January 21, 2017 at 19:29
Wally. I was trying to point out that in the long run our original debate about God’s anger is probably a moot point. From what we have, God can and will kill as he sees fit and that is the position of most of Christianity.
It is a very circular argument because as much as the preachers at the pulpit claim restoration and forgiveness with love and protection the opposite is also just as true, but of course not strongly evangelised to the masses.
If it is God’s will that against Christian values the unborn are aborted and the children die from hunger or the raped woman dies it is something we cannot prevent.
I wonder if you have ever thought to yourself that God has no control in any of these events, and it would be obvious that if a powerful force controlled the world it would be selective and observable in at least one way or another where we can say that is God’s work.
If it is God who provides a rare miracle for one white privileged child to live out of ten thousand and at the same time he destroys the lives of 20,000 black starving children, this exemplifies that the logic, the compassion, the morals and plain intelligence of such an action is completely missing so it strongly suggests the certainty that the Bible is incorrect in this matter and there is no control at all.
The science of randomness, luck and chance will account for many events in our lifetimes and often takes our lives. Bad and good people are created by events, people, environment and psychological factors among others. There is an explanation for most everything that happens in the physical world and I think attributing everything to an unseen power that exists in an emotional spiritual world is beyond sensibleness. Please give this some realistic thought Wally.
By the way, I had a very good restful night with no nightmares, visions or voices.
Peace and love to all humanity.
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January 27, 2017 at 19:41
“You accuse my friend of being delusional? Prove that. And watch your mouth by the way. One more sideways insult like that and you will in fact be moderated. That your opponent is a stupid argument.”
This what you said Wally, it was not an insult and was never intended to be an insult and you knew it, but you found it and many other ways to give me a hard time and an excuse to moderate me. Well it is your site Wally and your wish or prayer to rid the atheist has come true,
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January 27, 2017 at 19:56
So..does this mean you still won’t back up your assertion?
LOL
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January 28, 2017 at 03:06
Wrong, LoL, please think carefully about this. I wrote “You have undergone a huge emotional experience and an adjusted mind to absorb this ideology.” It is absolutely obvious that any kind of emotional feelings are going to adjust your attitude and the way you think about something, and if you think that a god, a father Christmas or a flying spag monster is the true creator you will want to absorb all the information with interest and a passion in some cases and ambassador appears to be a very passionate man regarding his faith. Does that not make any sense to you? If not, why?
I posted a comment with a whole lot of web sites that supported the emotional side of religious activity, however you have banned it ???
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December 30, 2016 at 10:50
Thanks for sharing this friend
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December 31, 2016 at 06:47
Thanks for sharing this!
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