Allow me to begin by saying that this is not a post about politics, although, it certainly does have major implications for political platforms. We have public figures at all levels of our government claiming to be both Christian and pro-choice. I came across an article this past week in which someone claimed that their Christian faith is what led them to become an abortion provider. Chances are, you have people in your own circles of family and friends who profess Christianity but rally behind the pro-choice cause.
I’ve occasionally heard the claim from some professing Christians that the Bible is silent on the specific issue of abortion, and therefore we cannot be dogmatic about the moral permissibility of terminating a pregnancy. The problem with this argument is, even if it is granted that no Scripture directly mentions the practice of abortion, the essential Christian doctrine of man is what must be dealt with. This doctrine is the true obstacle to reconciling the pro-choice position with Christianity.
When considering the question of whether or not abortion is permissible within a true, orthodox Christian worldview, the central question that must be asked is: What is the entity within the womb of a pregnant woman? Only if we know for absolute certain what it is can we answer the question of whether or not we are morally permitted to destroy that entity.
On a scientific level, we know that:
- At conception (fertilization of the egg, making it a zygote), there is a new being with a 100% unique genetic code and the inherent biological potential to mature to a point of independence from the womb. As Drs. Moore and Persaud explain in their embryology textbook, Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology: “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization…This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
- This entity is not part of the pregnant woman’s body, it is within, and being sustained by, her body.
- The entity in the womb is the same thing from day one of conception until the last day of the pregnancy. Its identity remains the same over the entire 40 weeks. There is no point at which it changes, ontologically, from one kind of thing to another kind of thing. It simply realizes a certain amount of its developmental potential over those 40 weeks. Just as you are the same entity you were at age 2 (just more developed), and will still be the same entity 10 years from now.
According to the Christian doctrine of man, which is essential to the entire system of Christian belief, we know that:
- A human being is more than a material body. It is a duality of body and immaterial soul mysteriously intermingled.
- At least some of the attributes of the immaterial soul of a human being constitute the Image of God in which mankind was created (Genesis 1:27). This image is what makes us wholly distinct from all other creatures.
- Genesis 9:6 says, “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made humankind in His own image.” I quote this verse not as a statement on the just penalty for murder, but to show why God condemns the murder of a human being: because they bear His image.
Therefore, if someone wants to harmonize their Christianity with the pro-choice position, here’s what they absolutely must have:
A well-grounded argument that produces 100% certainty that the entity within a pregnant woman’s womb does not have a human soul and thus does not bear the Image of God.
Newsflash: There is no such argument.
If there is any possibility that the entity in the womb has an image-bearing soul, there is no conceivable justification for intentionally destroying that entity. There are, of course, extraordinarily rare situations in which the pregnant woman’s life is mortally endangered by her pregnancy at a time when her unborn baby is not yet mature enough to live outside her womb. But in such cases, the intent behind terminating the pregnancy is not to kill the unborn child, it is to save the mother’s life. In such circumstances, the death of one human being is the unfortunate yet unavoidable outcome of saving one instead of losing both mother and child–which would be doubly tragic.
I would even argue that Scripture strongly suggests that the unborn child is more than a biological machine. The Gospel of Luke tells us that John the Baptist leaped within Elizabeth’s womb, seemingly in response to the Holy Spirit filling Elizabeth, when Mary, pregnant with Jesus, called out in greeting. (Luke 1:41).
The bottom line is, it is impossible for orthodox Christianity to include the pro-choice view. You may hold one or the other, but you cannot rationally hold both. Scripture is specific and clear on what mankind is: a creature with a physical body and an immortal, immaterial soul that bears the very image of our Creator God. We have no theologically and ethically viable choice but to assume that the image-bearing human soul is present in the unborn from the moment of conception.
August 7, 2016 at 18:12
A well-grounded argument that produces 100% certainty that the entity within a pregnant woman’s womb does not have a human soul and thus does not bear the Image of God.
Newsflash: There is no such argument.
She’s right. This would move the argument.
So, the natural question is: Prove the foetus has a soul.
Newsflash: The Templeton Foundation (a Christian scientific research group) has spent the better part of 30 years, and well over $1.5 billion (yes, billion with a “B”), trying to prove such a thing, and to-date, their efforts have returned exactly zero positive results.
So, prove the soul exists, and let’s move this conversation along….
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August 7, 2016 at 18:23
Hi John
In will make this easy because you have failed to read as usual
The premise here is based solely on what the Bible teaches…to believers
It’s not a debate about the truth of it not will it be
So yes move along is correct
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August 7, 2016 at 19:27
Hi Wally, yes, I read the article and understand what you’re saying. The author of the article does, however, seem to make a specific note to non-biblical things in her “Newsflash” statement.
So, if she wants to make a positive statement, then she should actually ground that statement somehow.
Of course, you will say, “the bible says the soul exists,” and you’d be right. It does.
So… where’s the evidence for it?
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August 7, 2016 at 19:29
Let me type slowly
The post is about what the Bible teaches
Don’t like those constraints then move along
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August 7, 2016 at 19:32
The bible is pro-abortion.
See below.
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August 7, 2016 at 18:17
A pro-choice Christian is one who happens to pick and choose what they want to believe in the Bible and doesn’t believe the truths contained in it 100%. You could say some are ignorant but others may as well denounce their claim when they want to argue with God’s revealed word. It’s pretty much a waste of time keeping up the appearance. Jesus Himself will tell them something like “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. If you loved me, you would have obeyed my commands. Never did I give the impression murder was justifiable under any circumstances.”
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August 7, 2016 at 18:19
Fact indeed thank you sister
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August 7, 2016 at 18:22
I can see someone trying to put the burden of proof to the OP. I’m pretty sure he can’t prove he’s without a soul either.
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August 7, 2016 at 18:24
Yeah he can’t
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August 7, 2016 at 19:22
“It’s not a debate about the truth of it not (nor?) will it be”
—–
Amazing admission, prolife and prochoice definitionas and arguments aside, that it doesn’t seem to matter to you whether what the Bible says on a given subject is in fact true, just that it says it. Can you hover on that thought for awhile, wally…
-kia
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August 7, 2016 at 19:26
Nope because I am quite comfortable with its truth
Peace and thanks for the visit
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August 7, 2016 at 22:07
Of course you are
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August 8, 2016 at 04:22
Yep
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August 8, 2016 at 09:13
Once again those who are in darkness find only obscurity and hatred toward our loving and living God. Like satan (intentional lower case), in the wilderness with Christ, they try to use what they find in scripture, such as on abortion, to fit into their foray to discredit God and His followers. It is their sole purpose to do so. They will read, and perhaps study a few scriptures around their chosen passages, and then attempt to make it truth and appropriate for their attack.
They fail to bring into this argument the sin of the people in these passages. Nowhere does god Kill or destroy those who love and follow him. God destroys, in His own anger, to bring us back to Him. There is always a remnant in these passages that do come back. These are the ones who chose truth over sin and live. As God is always faithful to His word, He hates sin and destroys sin. It sounds appalling in these passages but the Old Testament is full of these stories where God brings his people back to him. Because we are only creatures, who for those who do not know, love and serve God, they love the darkness and they seek to find their answers in logic and ridicule of Truth. We have a choice provided by the blood of Jesus. We can stay in darkness and love the world, have our abortions and good times, but in the end we will pay for our sins. There is only one way, one door, we can enter that will save us from this eternity of destruction. They need to know there is forgiveness for these sins as well.
So look up scriptures, argue with Wally about Truth. Ridicule and try to bring him down so you can laugh at him and build up your false premise of lies. Just remember the same God who destroyed those in the Old Testament in horrendous ways has a plan in eternity for you. It’s not too late to come to Christ and use scripture for “your benefit,” not for trying to destroy others.
Wally, your faith is strong my brother. There will always be those who try to bring you down. With God you are growing stronger! Remain firm in your faith and your reward will be great, especially if God is using you to win one of these to His love and salvation. Blessings!
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August 8, 2016 at 09:14
Thank you for an encouraging word friend
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August 7, 2016 at 19:31
And the author is incorrect. The bible does indeed make mention of abortions, but nowhere does it outlaw it.
In Hosea 9:11-16, the son of Beeri prays for his god to intervene in earthly affairs and wreak havoc on the unborn of an entire population. “Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts… Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” To paraphrase, Hosea pleads that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children, to which the Christian god dutifully obeys and makes all their unborn children miscarry. Now, terminating a pregnancy unnaturally is unmistakably what we today call an abortion.
In Hosea 13:16 the Christian god is utterly diabolical as he dashes to “pieces” the infants of Samaria and orders “their pregnant women [to be] ripped open by swords.” This, self-evidently, describes mass abortions of such barbarity that it’s hard to even fathom.
In Numbers 5:11-21 a bizarre and abusive ritual is described which is to be performed by a priest on any woman suspected of adultery; a ritual which results in an abortion. In the text a potion is mixed and the accused woman is brought before the priest who says, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.” As clear as day this is a definitive description of an induced abortion; an act where poison is forcibly given to ruin the foetus and rid a woman of another man’s child.
In Numbers 31:17 Moses commands “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words, kill all women that are or could be pregnant, which is plainly abortion for the foetus.
In 2 Kings 15:16 the Christian god again orders pregnant women to be “ripped open,” which is both abortion and homicide on a mass scale. “At that time Menahem destroyed the town of Tappuah and all the surrounding countryside as far as Tirzah, because its citizens refused to surrender. He killed the entire population and ripped open the pregnant women.”
In total there are in fact twenty-six separate instances where this Middle Eastern god performs abortions on demand, conducts infanticide (the intentional killing of newborns), and murders toddlers en masse; acts recounted from 1 Samuel 15:3 to Isaiah 13:15-18 where this god not only smashes babies to death but also orders the rape of their mothers. In a word the Christian god is a heinous baby-killing, foetus-destroying monster, and as it turns out his son is also no friend of the unborn. In the Gospel of the Egyptians Jesus not only demands total abstinence but preaches for the outright separation of the sexes, stating that “sorrow” and what he repeatedly calls “error” will remain with man for just “As long as women bear children.” The statement is quite explicit: don’t ever get pregnant, and if you do then abortion is better than birth.
I hope this helps.
All the best
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August 7, 2016 at 19:37
Yeah all the best to you
Yeah it does help as many see that your comments are always the same no matter the content of the post
Your foolishness is evident for the world to see as is the fact that you don’t come to Christian blogs to talk but to cut and paste your same repetitive points
Peace and goodbye to you
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August 7, 2016 at 19:49
The author does say, does she not, “the Bible is silent on the specific issue of abortion.”
Well, that is incorrect. The bible makes numerous mentions of abortions, but not one of them is “anti”-abortion. In fact, there’s even an abortion ritual for priests to perform.
You’re not questioning what’s in the bible, are you, wally?
I gave you chapter and verse.
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August 7, 2016 at 20:00
Your turn John
For someone who has expressed concerns about Christians having access to children I would say you are far more dangerous to them as you want them dead
Tell me John, why do you hate babies so?
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August 8, 2016 at 04:25
I hate babies? News to me.
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August 8, 2016 at 04:43
John, your position in relation to Scripture is moronic and laughable(in an ironic sort of way). But, of course you won’t see that, as your emotional attachment to killing babies is quite intense.
Again, why do you hate babies so?
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August 8, 2016 at 04:49
Again, I hate babies?
News to me.
So, Wally, are you denying what’s in the bible?
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August 8, 2016 at 04:50
Ah, so you don’t understand why you hate them, you just do..I see..interesting.
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August 8, 2016 at 05:00
Must be.
Now, the abortion ritual (complete with prayer) detailed in Numbers 5:11-21.
Is that abortion OK, but others not?
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August 8, 2016 at 05:11
Its ok John this must be difficult for you. Perhaps then you can answer the very good question IB asked
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August 8, 2016 at 05:13
Wally, are the bible-directed, Yhwh sanctioned abortions detailed in Numbers 5:11-21 OK, but others not?
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August 7, 2016 at 20:46
I always find it fascinating that Zande condemns God for what Zande perceives to be God’s “utterly diabolical…. mass abortions of such barbarity that it’s hard to even fathom,” and than turns around and tries to claim that people should perceive abortion as a simple emotionless matter involving nothing more than a souless clump of cells. How come God is allegedly “utterly diabolical and barbaric” but when people do the exact same thing it’s all good?
“So, prove the soul exists….”
Zande just did. The soul is what is at war within his own heart, a heart that projects his own self onto the face of God, declaring God an alleged, “heinous baby-killing, foetus-destroying monster.” That kind of self denial and projection is usually rooted in anguish, grief, and anger, rage that now blames God for the suffering of children.
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August 8, 2016 at 04:35
Are you denying those verses are in your bible? There’s even an abortion ritual, Insanity, complete with prayer.
Is that abortion OK, but others not?
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August 8, 2016 at 04:46
John
You have stated in other places that none of the events you are arguing about even happened. So, to use events that never happened is simply a reflection of your intense emotional attachment to killing children.
Why do you hate babies so?
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August 8, 2016 at 05:22
O.k. back to this one. This is not interrogate the Christian here. IB raised a point you need to address it. Why is it heinous when God supposedly does it but for you it is the emotion free eradication of a blow of cells?
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August 8, 2016 at 05:24
So you’re saying abortion is not heinous, then.
Okay.
Why are you opposed to it, then?
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August 8, 2016 at 05:30
Address the comment that was made to you John
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August 8, 2016 at 05:35
I am.
You are saying abortion is no problem.Your god does it, so it’s good.
Why, then, Wally, are you outwardly opposed to it?
Why are you working against what your god has sanctioned, and even provided a pray and organised ritual for?
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August 8, 2016 at 05:39
No John you have not
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August 8, 2016 at 06:02
Yes, I am.
So, let’s at least clear this up:
The abortions detailed in Numbers are fine, but others are not.
Is that right?
Some are “heinous,” but others not, right?
Is that your position, Wally?
Have I got that right?
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August 7, 2016 at 20:47
I don’t know, I think it’s pretty simple–once fertilization takes place—once the sperm and egg do their thing..once the zygote is good to go…that’s all she wrote….no looking back…
Being the product of adoption—I have never been an advocate for this casual stance our society has with sex—a very casual, no big deal sort of thing…where abortion becomes just one more form of conception, albeit after the fact….
The whole mindset of “it’s my body, it’s my choice” is a very selfish, self absorbed approach when it comes to the choice of sex..as in it takes two…as in a partnership…as in thoughtfulness, not mindlessness…
add to that the option of turning to abortion in order to terminate the resulting pregnancy from that choice of sex for sex sake…and it just rings of utter hollowness.
There is a huge responsibility involved with the act of having sex. A huge responsibility—-as pregnancy is a very real possibility and a very big deal.
You don’t want a baby?
Don’t have sex.
It’s that simple.
But then that requires self discipline and we just aren’t a disciplined people now are we?
Contraception is a form of Russian roulette…as it is never 100% guarantee—so the idea that there could always be a pregnancy following any sexual union between a man and a woman must always be seen as a real possibility…one that should not be so easily or readily dismissed… as more often the case seems to be in our culture—-
Yet we don’t want to deal with such responsibility as we just want to fulfill our wants, our tastes, our desires…and to heck with responsibility.
The formation of life is a pretty big deal, a massive responsibility and yet we seem to have simply dismissed that little notion….
just saying…
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August 7, 2016 at 20:55
Well, my dear sister, for just sayin, you just said it really, really well.
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August 7, 2016 at 22:25
Not to mention all the Scriptures relay the fact that our God knew us before the foundations of the earth were made. In his eyes we are the person He intended even BEFORE conception! Great article and I applaud the bravery with which you brought forth these truths. I am sorry for those that have a knowledge of the Word without the Spirit of Truth to go with that knowledge, but sad to say, even the devil knows the Scriptures better than some who consider themselves “religious.” The truth of the matter is this, MURDER of any type is a sin in God’s eyes. A sin that CAN be forgiven, but sin none the less and those that PRACTICE a lifestyle of sinning will be judged by God Almighty for depriving a life to be lived that was ordained by God to be lived.
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August 8, 2016 at 04:22
Amen brother Roland, and thank you for your great word.
Loved that last point, as of course God will forgive all our sin, including that one.
Thanks much my friend.
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August 7, 2016 at 23:02
So is a brand new human soul is created at the instant when sperm and egg unite? Or Is there a soul that’s already been created and maybe it’s just hanging around waiting for an egg and sperm to unite? How does this work, exactly?
And when exactly is the soul added to the biological entity? Would this be when the sperm cell nucleus enters the egg cell cytoplasm? Or does this occur when a new nuclear membrane surrounds the chromosomes from both egg and sperm cell? Just trying to figure this out.
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August 8, 2016 at 04:20
Um…
Back to the news now. Are you telling me the the lesson of the post in incorrect? Are you asserting that with in the teachings of the Bible that it is ok for a Christian to support abortion?
There’s something for you to figure out.
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August 8, 2016 at 05:19
Jz already tried to point out the scriptures to you that speak to abortion, but you totally ignored them and strangely started asking why he hates babies (?)
David seems to be asking different questions that you also seem to be passing by, and then accusing him of say8ng things that his comment didn’t say… also strange brother wally.why not simply answer both people’s comments directly and honestly?
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August 8, 2016 at 05:51
Mike
You seem to possess limited reading skills. The post is about what the Bible teaches on this subject. David’s questions are obviously not relevant to the content of the post. Now, on to you.
I fear you have made yourself look moronic here. As a “minister” for decades, you absolutely know the teaching here is correct and in line with scripture.
So, you have presented us all with several options to ponder:
1. You were never a “minister” and that explains why you fail to understand Scripture.
2. You were a “minister” and wasted decades because what you should have been doing is taking remedial reading.
2. You are so desperate to attack the things of God, and the people of God, that you will say and to anything to make that happen.
You pick, and peace.
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August 8, 2016 at 06:24
And jz pointed out some Scripture. Why not answer him?
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August 8, 2016 at 06:32
Well……see….I am weary of playing interrogate the Christian
How about you ponder and address the question put to you?
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August 8, 2016 at 06:35
No. I’m asking you. Why on your blog when someone abided by what you asked him to do, ie jz and the reference to Scripture, didn’t you answer his comment.
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August 8, 2016 at 06:39
Good grief, this is like grade school all over again.
This is not, as I say, interrogate the Christian.
Part of conversation is a two way exchange.
So…since you clearly don’t want that…peace out.
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August 8, 2016 at 06:59
Seems a reasonable request that you address JZs comment with the scripture you requested.
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August 8, 2016 at 06:34
And the other person asked some questions based on biblical understanding. Why not answer him?
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August 8, 2016 at 09:18
The post is about what the Bible teaches on this subject.
Yes.
Ignoring all the other commanded abortions, Numbers 5:11-21 details a complete abortion ritual (even with a prayer to Yhwh) to be carried out by priests.
The question is: is this abortion OK, but others not?
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August 8, 2016 at 06:38
Wally, I believe that the argument here is that the Bible teaches that one cannot be pro-choice, because a fertilized egg has a soul, and so is in the image of God. I’m trying not o figure out if this is so, and if so, how does this work? Is the soul a part of the cell, is it floating above the cell, what’s going on here? This is relevant, because the argument here seems to rest on the idea that a fertilized egg has a presumably indestructible, indivisible soul.
However, perhaps the following would be more relevant. Now, I believe that the argument here also says that since a fertilized egg carries the image of God, it is equal to, say, a year old baby. Embryos, baby, all the same due to souls and the image of God thing. So, let’s say there’s a fire in a hospital. In one room, we have 10 embryos, prepped for transplantation into ten women within the next 24 hours. In the next room, we have a crying year old baby. You have time to save either ten embryos or one baby, but not both. What do you do?
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August 8, 2016 at 06:47
Actually, David, the post is about what the Bible, as written teaches.
Do you dispute that teaching?
Your question is fascination honestly, but really has nothing to do with the Biblical teaching in the post.
I might have some thoughts on your question, but generally speaking your questions, and those of your crew, are not honest inquiries, but merely an effort to trap Christians.
Now, do you dispute the Biblical teaching here? No, of course you don’t, because within constraints of Scripture, it is indisputable.
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August 8, 2016 at 06:54
Who knows what the Bible teaches about souls and fertilized eggs? I’m trying to figure out how this all works.
But given what you think the Bible teaches, what would you do in the burning hospital? This isn’t a trap, it’s just a variation on the classic “lifeboat question.”
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August 8, 2016 at 07:01
You don’t know what the Bible teaches about souls? Then perhaps you should check it out. Starts with:
Then God formed man from the dust of the earth, breathed life into his nostrils, and man became a living soul.
There is more of course. But, seriously, if you want to know what God teaches about souls…I suggest spending some time in it.
So, take that time, and come back and let’s discuss your readings.
🙂
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August 8, 2016 at 16:01
Well, Wally, I checked the Bible, but I couldn’t anything about fertilized eggs. I’m thinking that maybe the writers lacked certain information about basic biology.
I see where it says that Adam gets the breath of life, but it doesn’t say he gets a soul. You added the part about getting a living soul. That’s not in the original text. Anyway, Adam is a fully formed man, not a fertilized egg.
Regardless, since it’s your birthday, I’ll give you answer to the burning hospital question. Based on what you seem to think about what the Bible says, the answer is…save the embryos, and let the baby burn.
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August 8, 2016 at 06:45
I feel somewhat violated someone used my statement as an implication of approval that the bible is pro-abortion. Sadly, that is what Atheists do when they have nothing better to say. It’s a sorry attempt. All we can do is truly pray that God removes the blinders before it’s too late.
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August 8, 2016 at 07:29
feet that shed innocent blood… God hates them… nuff said. reblog on http://theunfetteredpreacher.com
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August 8, 2016 at 07:30
Indeed nuff said and thanks for sharing Bill
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August 8, 2016 at 09:33
In an emotionally charged debate, it is unlikely one will depart from an entrenched position, regardless of the scriptures put forth. Unfortunate for those who are the most vulnerable. Take care, whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap. At some point when arguments are to no avail I’m reminded of the scriptue Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Just remember, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God. He 10:31
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August 8, 2016 at 10:24
Does a man have a soul in the womb before birth? “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:5
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August 8, 2016 at 11:19
That says a lot huh?
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August 8, 2016 at 16:04
Ah, we have an answer! Apparently, in some undetectable dimension, we have souls stacked up like planes over an airport just waiting for clearance to land on a newly fertilized egg. Very good, thank you.
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August 8, 2016 at 16:11
Reblogged this on wishihadsaidthat and commented:
This is very well said.
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August 8, 2016 at 16:11
She wrote it well and thanks for sharing
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August 8, 2016 at 16:39
Well written, even probably well-intentioned, but factually incorrect. The bible makes many, many mentions of abortions, and even details an abortion ritual complete with a prayer to Yhwh and how the abortion procedure should be carried out.
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August 8, 2016 at 17:18
Hi John
Surely you realize you have repeated that same variation 9 times on this thread. Repetition does not make it correct.
Now, as you like to scream and holler about moderation…don’t repeat that same tired comment again, or that is what you face. Seriously, grow up and have a conversation, as you claim you want to have.
Thanks and peace
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August 8, 2016 at 17:29
Hi Wally, and happy birthday. Hope you’re having a great one.
Are you trying to say Numbers 5:11-21 doesn’t detail an abortion ritual? The prayer (after the poison has been administered to the pregnant woman) even says:
“When he makes your womb miscarry”… That’s an abortion, Wally.
Can’t you just admit that?
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August 8, 2016 at 23:56
Wow! This entire string of comments was very interesting. I agree with Wally that John simply keeps repeating several, so he thinks, “accusatory” verses that God supports abortion. Johns’ argument assumes a lot. It also takes Scripture out of context. Islamophobes have done the same thing with the Qu’ran. Sadly, I was one of those people who spouted references to all the violent verses in the Qu’ran. I repeated verses about jihad over and over. Then a funny thing happened. I did a search on what the Qu’ran says about love. I actually found verses that were quite similar to 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. I started thinking that there might be more Muslims who believe in love and respect than we Americans are willing to admit. I realized Islamic extremists were taking verses out of context, using them to justify their plans for world domination, persecution, rape and plunder, even murder. The extremists believe in establishing a world caliphate. They are of a certain political ideology that is a faction of Islam. The are abusing their own holy Qu’ran to justify horrendous, hateful, violent behavior.
Now, as to God supporting abortion, and actually proscribing it as some sort of retribution, I believe the answer to that lies in looking at the verses spotlighted by John in context. I just finished a college course on the Book of Psalms that opened a whole new world of interpretation of the Scriptures. Psalm 109 is a particularly troubling reading if taken out of context. It seems totally at odds with the teachings of Jesus. In Psalm 109, David is asking God to curse his enemies. David was a servant of God who had been persecuted, hunted, plotted against, and slandered everywhere he went. Psalm 109 is an “imprecatory” Psalm. That is, it contains curses against the enemy. I admit I was shocked when I read this psalm. After much study, I came to understand that David’s comments are not about personal vindictiveness. Rather, the tone of his appeal is that of righteous indignation. He is not looking to “get even;” rather, he is asking God to deal with individuals who are essentially unrepentant and have been given over to a reprobate mind. He is concerned that if God allows his servants to be slandered and menaced without cost, others would begin to doubt God’s righteousness.
The verses John quotes are taken out of context. John is also ignoring the fact that the term “with child” occurs twenty-six times in the Bible. The term “with fetus” never occurs once. In Luke 1:36 and 41, we are told that Elizabeth conceived a “son” and that the “babe” leaped in her womb. God does not say that a “fetus” leaped in her womb. He says THE BABE leaped. This is the same word in Greek God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings. Consider Job 3:16: “Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.” Job referred to unborn children as INFANTS. Not fetuses. Not masses of tissue. INFANTS. In God’s eyes, an unborn child is a living human baby. God never says once that an unborn child is anything less than a human being. I have considered the referred Scripture Exodus 21:22-23. It clearly states, “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,” If the woman has a premature birth and the child lives (“no mischief follows”), then there’s no death penalty. However, if the child dies (or the woman dies) God says the death penalty applies: “Thou shalt give life for life.” Why would God require the death penalty if He didn’t consider the unborn child to be a human being?
If God allows a child to be conceived, then God obviously has a plan for that child. Mary’s parents didn’t know that she’d give birth to the Savior of the world, but she did. God has a plan for unborn children. (Jeremiah. 1:5; Luke. 1:13-17; Genesis. 4:25; Jude. 13:3-5). To abort an unborn child is to stop a plan of God. To have an abortion is to take matters into your own hands, rather than to trust God to work things out. Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 3:3 that the last days will be characterized by people who lack “natural affection.” I believe the pro-abortion movement is a perfect example of this. It is natural to conceive a child, grow to love that child, take care of the child during pregnancy, give birth to the child, and then raise the child with the best care possible. Obviously, if there are issure regarding an ability to raise and properly care for the child, then adoption is indicated. It’s the natural process that God has ordained. It is not natural to kill the child. To commit such an act is to show a lack of natural affection.
It is interesting to note that a huge percentage of abortions are performed when there is no threat to the mother or the unborn child. Abortion is a very sad and evil form of birth control. When two people engage in sexual intercourse, there is a strong possibility that they will create a child. When you have sex, you should be willing to assume the responsibility you might incur. When you think about the types of abortion being performed in America today, it’s rather appalling. There’s the suction type abortion. The unborn child is literally vacuumed from the mother’s womb during the early stages of pregnancy. The currette-type abortion is where the child is cut from the mother’s womb with a spoon-like object. There is a form of abortion that is similar to a Caesarean operation. The baby is surgically removed from the mother and allowed to suffocate, because the child’s lungs aren’t yet developed. Another type of abortion is the salt brine technique. With this method, the unborn child is literally “pickled” to death by the injection of a strong salt solution. A few days after the injection the child is still born. As of October 2000, women are legally allowed to take RU-486 (mifepristone), the so-called abortion pill. The unintentional irony is that RU-486 can be read as an abbreviated form of the question “Are You For 86?” To “86″ something has long been American slang for getting rid of that person or thing.
I tried to make this reply short, but I just couldn’t do it.
God bless.
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August 9, 2016 at 04:19
Well, the comment is fine and dandy, and thanks for it, Steve. You make some really great points. You had something to say, so you said it!
Of course the accusations made are baseless and absurd. But, that really doesn’t matter, they will continue to be made anyway.
Thanks Steve!
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August 9, 2016 at 04:55
Hi Steve
You didn’t mention the abortion ritual detailed in Numbers 5:11-21.
Any rason for ignoraing this?
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August 9, 2016 at 05:07
John, it was addressed. That comment about context? Addressed. Did he go into any details about that passage? Of course not, as providing you counter arguments is useless, as your 10th cut and past of that same accusation stands as proof. Surely you realize you paste that same comment not matter what comment you are answering.
Move it along John, as you well know the position you are stating over and over and yet over is not held by any except those who, like you, have a strange emotional attachment to this issue.
Thanks
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August 9, 2016 at 07:58
Sorry, Wally, but no one has addressed the specific abortion ritual detailed in Numbers.
You’re all just ignoring it, like it somehow doesn’t exist.
Well, it does.
It’s there in black and white.
The bible contains an abortion ritual, complete with a prayer to Yhwh and specific procedures.
But OK, you all want to ignore this verse. You want to pretend it doesn’t exist.
Fine.
It doesn’t make it go away, though.
Take care.
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August 9, 2016 at 00:02
I am Pro-Life!!
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August 9, 2016 at 04:16
Amen Kristi
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August 9, 2016 at 07:05
Thanks Wally. I was just a bit fired up writing my response.
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August 9, 2016 at 07:11
😊that is A ok
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August 9, 2016 at 16:28
hey Wally–I keep coming back to this post just to see how the comments continue to grow—with a few commentators appearing to be really quite fussy and petty in their demands that you or others prove or disprove this and that …
We must all note that there is a huge difference in the Old Testament and the New—with that difference being the sacrifice of Christ for the sinner–and that of sin being forgiven and people being made anew….
The divide between created and Creator no longer existed… as Christ bridged that gap with his death and subsequent resurrection…
But many of your diehard commentators Wally, who are ardent in their disbelief ,will merely brush that thought aside as nonsense, claiming there is no proof in their minds as to any of that having taken place…
One of the things that we as 21st century readers must understand is that of ancient Jewish law and custom….God was very precise and exact in what He said man should and should not do—yet that never seems to slow man down.
The thing is that for every action, good or bad, there is a reaction.
God stated very specifically what the people should and should not do—and if they failed at this task, there were consequences to suffer.
The breaking of any law brings about a consequence–and consequences are not what we humans want or like–we don’t want to really have bad consequences come from our actions…
It’s like the guy who robs a store and then carjacks an innocent bystander in order to get away. A police chase ensues. The guy fails to stop or slow down—endangering all who come across his path. Eventually the police stop him–either with a pit maneuver or they shoot him. The community and family of this man becomes upset that this man was shot and killed by police—yet had he not robed and stole, not carjacked an innocent person, not driven recklessly endangering all in his path..
then the police would have had no need for deadly force.
Yet somehow now in the mind of the family and community this man who was breaking all sorts of laws is the victim of the law….
We just don’t like the consequences of our actions despite the fact that we are fully aware of what they could be—we somehow think we can justify our actions even though our actions are illegal, wrong and sinful…..
I know that God’s heart was grieved when the massacre of the Innocents took place. He knew that Joseph and Mary had been warned by the Wisemen to flee with their newborn son because Herod was to go on a murdering spree of epic proportion killing those infants of a certain age out of the fear that one of them would rise up to take his place….
God allowed the carnage because man is free to make both good and bad choices.
The Bible is full of the stories of sorrows that come as the direct consequences to man’s actions…all the way back to the fall in the Garden and even to the fall of Lucifer himself…
God gave us laws and rules in which, if followed, would make our lives better and easier, but because we also have choice—we may choose the negative—and then we and all those effected have to live with the consequences…
Just as was pointed out in the adulterous woman of Number—and yet now—through the blood of the lamb we may be forgiven and healed—we still may have the negative consequences of our actions here on this earth—but our spirits will be reunited with our Triune God when we are called home…
Here to adding to the count Wally
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August 9, 2016 at 16:34
And what you added can’t be counted my friend
Perfect and thank you
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August 9, 2016 at 21:05
how so my friend?!—just more fodder for the fed bin 🙂
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August 9, 2016 at 21:16
Well they were good ones. Hopefully you won’t become fodder over them. The opposition is becoming more….adamant
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August 9, 2016 at 21:18
So I’ve noticed–but I really liked what the one person said—the person who was “anonymous”…paraphrasing—“that sometimes we are to leave those hard headed ones behind”…
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August 9, 2016 at 21:22
Yeah…hard to say when though. Sometimes seems God says back off and others He says pile on
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August 9, 2016 at 21:42
kind of like whipped cream–I always want more piled on top of my ice cream 🙂
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August 11, 2016 at 18:10
I will respond to you John zande in reference to (Numbers 5:11-21) although I’m not sure what Translation you are using but below is the King James Version which is the closest to the original but of course all Translations have man’s error but most are not meant to deceive they are just Translation error except for Cults and False Teachers Translations and of course they do seek to deceive and they add to the Scriptures or delete parts of it, which they will answer for (Revelation 18-21) this is why we need to ask for God’s wisdom and empowering and Trust Jesus to lead us into all Truth and yes He will also show us Translation error and deception.
No where in Numbers 5:11-21 does it say the woman was pregnant, being defiled means being polluted by Sin. What the intention was is that the woman knowing she had committed Adultery after hearing what would happen to her would confess her Sin, if she was innocent God would have intervened and the bitter water would not have cursed her.
King James Version……
Numbers 5:11-21 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the Children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner; And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled: Then shall the man bring his wife unto the Priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance. And the Priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord: And the Priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the Priest shall take, and put it into the water: And the Priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the Priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse: And the Priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the Priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the Priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot and thy belly to swell. (KJV)
Another Scripture you need to consider John zande is below…….
Lamentations 3:33 For God doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the Children of Men. (KJV)
When you understand John, the Heart of God and He is Love, you will understand His inspired Words in Scripture. (1Corinthians 2: 9-16 KJV)
In Christ’s Name – Anne.
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August 11, 2016 at 18:34
ThAnks for that Anne
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August 16, 2016 at 07:52
I hope your still following john zande as I felt I should clarify something for you which may have puzzled you, in reference to the two Scriptures below, perhaps you felt they contradicted each other but they don’t.
Lamentations 3:33 For God doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the Children of Men. (KJV)
Numbers 5:21The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot and thy belly to swell.
The Symptoms of the Curse in the above verse can come from Venereal disease which in context here seems they did, which means when this woman committed Adultery she also caught a disease.
When someone chooses to Sin they reap what they sow, God does not hear the prayers of Sinners as they have distanced themselves from Him because of their Sin, their choice not His so they suffer what they bring on themselves or by Satan who has a foothold because of their Sin but God can intervene to save their lives, He knows those who are His and not one will be lost, they like all Christians will come to Heart repentance and complete God’s good works that He prepared in advance for them to do.
So when God says in Scripture, I do this or that to someone, it’s not personal, what He is saying or means, is that what has been planed from the beginning will happen to those who choose to Sin or reject Him, it’s all about cause and affect, we choose our own punishment or rewards.
In Christ’s Name – Anne.
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August 16, 2016 at 13:38
Wally thanks for follow we so appreciate it.
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August 16, 2016 at 13:41
My pleasure!
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August 31, 2016 at 03:25
Haven’t read the comments (going out the door in a mo…) but a well presented sober piece of balanced writing. Thanks. KR
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August 31, 2016 at 04:08
Thanks for reading. Some of the comments will make your head hurt lol
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September 1, 2016 at 12:35
Thank you for sharing. I just want to say that I had a premature daughter who weighed less than 2 pounds. She is now going to be 31 years old. She is beautiful and intelligent. I’m so proud of her. Thank you for the follow.
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September 1, 2016 at 12:38
Oh amen! Sure glad you made that decision
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September 1, 2016 at 13:59
Abortion is not an issue. She was premature due to my health condition.
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September 1, 2016 at 14:17
I can relate to that personally
I was 8 weeks premature in 1962 and didn’t weigh 3 lbs
Due to my mom’s bad habits
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September 1, 2016 at 14:20
Glad to know that you’re now healthy and strong.
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September 2, 2016 at 23:33
Thank you for coming back to visit and like my new post. Blessings. 🙂
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September 3, 2016 at 05:35
My pleasure
1
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January 22, 2017 at 18:42
Amen- beautifully written
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January 22, 2017 at 19:09
It was great, huh? I am glad to have found it. Thanks for coming by!
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