Rather than my normal, “get up out of bed and go to church” post, this morning I am running something from about a year ago, when the then current political crisis of the day was raging. The crises have changed, but the lesson has not.
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
A re run from an earlier post
Before I dive into this post, allow me to say a couple of things. First of all, I may later take some liberties with the application of the above verse. I don’t think I will take them too far, but some might disagree. Second, I know that some of what I may say may make some folks want to come to my house and have a little talk. Well, that’s okay.
I totally understand that our county, and the world around us appears to be descending into chaos, anarchy or even Imperial control. Look around; the issues we face are huge.
Ferguson MO is on fire. Doesn’t matter why in this post, but it is. My opinions on that topic aren’t relevant to this. It is, however, tragic.
We face a monstrous immigration crisis. Once again, my opinion on the topic is irrelevant to this post. But, it is a crisis.
The rise of militant, violent Islam is a security crisis for the world and our country. Once again, any further opinions do not matter.
Our government appears stonewalled, and the only thing happening appears to be executive orders by an extremely unpopular president. Once again, any further opinions on politics do not matter.
All of these things matter, and they matter a lot. Resolving them matters a lot. Please understand I am not saying these things are not important; they are; they are; they are. Got it? Scripture teaches as well, that we have responsibilities to be good citizens; that includes participation in the political process.
So, now let’s take a look at our verse above. Here is the quick background. Read the full story in Acts Chapter 1. Jesus had just completed his post resurrection ministry on Earth and was ascending into Heaven to take His place with His Father. He had clearly discussed with His disciples what they were to do after His Ascension. However, as Jesus disappeared into the clouds, they were just standing there staring, very likely with their mouths hanging open. That is when two angels appeared and issued this somewhat paraphrased rebuke to them, “Hey! Why are you all just standing here staring? Jesus told you He was coming back and He told you what you needed to be up to! Get back to Jerusalem and do what He said!” Okay, that was VERY paraphrased.
So, what had He instructed them? In Acts 1:4, He had instructed them to return to Jerusalem and await the empowering of the Holy Spirit. He elaborated further in Acts 1:8, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus issued this instruction, “ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Guess what? Those instructions have never changed, not in the 2000 years since they were issued by our Lord. Rather than staring up at the clouds with our mouths hanging open, we need to be out there getting busy fulfilling the instructions Jesus issued to us.
What, you say, is my point? We spend tons of time, talking and energy on these issues. Once again, let me reiterate that they are important issues. But, are they truly our assigned mission on this Earth? We talk about them, we have opinions about them, we vocalize loudly about them and we post about them on Facebook. What if we took even a small amount of that time, vocalization and energy and used it to share the Gospel with somebody who needed it?
We were all non believers at some point in our lives. How did we act? We probably acted like pagans. After all pagans are going to act like pagans. For us to expect the world to behave differently in anyway is almost nonsensical thinking. What changed us from what we were to what we are hopefully becoming? Of course, the answer is the salvation offered through Jesus Christ and the subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is the only thing that can make us “better.”
Do we want the world to really be different? Share the Gospel with energy and effort. Tell your children and your family will change. Tell your neighbors and your neighborhood will change. Like a pebble in a pond, the ripple can and will spread. Remember in Acts 17:6, when the disciples were referred to as, “those that have turned the world upside down”?
Of course, everyone will never be saved; the world will never be completely restored until God chooses to do that at some point in the future. But when we face him someday, do we want to be able to say we did our best and hear these words: “Well done, thou good and faithful servant“?
Truth in Palmyra 
March 15, 2015 at 12:08
Reblogged this on Christian Heritage News & Commentary.
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March 15, 2015 at 12:10
I think in theory, we shouldn’t “worry” about anything, because worry is a kind of fear and faith and fear cannot exist at the same time. Even if we start to see signs that the world is falling apart, God says, rejoice, Christ is coming soon. That kind of makes me laugh because that is a tall order.
There is a find line to be walked between paying attention to what’s going on in the world and not sinking into despair and anxiety.
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March 15, 2015 at 12:25
Again, IB, you are more than correct. We could go further than that and just state that worry is, in fact, a sin. That would be so because worry reflects a lack of trust, which would be sin. Wow huh?
The whole end of the world thing is tough. On one hand, the day when God restores all this to it’s original state is cause for joy. On the other hand, the process is not going to be necessarily fun. How involved in the process we will be, of course, depends on whether one believes we will be around or not. But that’s another issue totally.
Sometimes I think, “Hurry up, Jesus, come on back and set it all right.” Then, I look around and realize that there are so many who still don’t know HIm; then I think, “Whoa, slow down, we need more time!”
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March 15, 2015 at 13:35
Sometimes I feel like I’m one of the very few thinking that – “Slow down, Jesus! People still need to be saved here!” And Scripture says that He will wait to come back so that more people can be saved. Sure, rejoice when the Savior comes, but don’t just go into your bomb shelters and wait for Him – go out and pray for people, preach to people, love people.
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March 15, 2015 at 13:39
Well…I agree with you 10,000 percent. Hunkering down in the bunker is the last thing we should do. In fact, the end of the world is really not even our problem. God will make it happen when He does. Of course, we need to be personally ready, and also live as if He is returning. But your comment about unsaved people…yep that should concern us. Thank you so much for the great comment!
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March 15, 2015 at 14:16
You can try for a billion years and you will never have converted all the people into Christians. This has been tried and the ISIS criminals are currently trying to convert the world to Muslims by using force and they are drastically reducing the Christian population in that part of the world. With so many other religions, adaptions, cults and non believers to compete with the numbers of your idealistic faith are declining and so I cannot think of a better time for God to arrive on earth and save his faithful few from being wiped out.
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March 15, 2015 at 14:25
You sound rather gleeful about the thought of Christianity being wiped out and eradicated SKL. Why is that? Once again, you pop in…make a rather bizarre and nonsensical comment, then run off in another direction.
I ask you yet again..have you ever actually taken the time to read this Bible that you have so many issues with? Specifically have you read the Gospel of John?
As far as your last statement, yes I await the return of Jesus and ti will be a glorious time. But, he tarries, and do you know why? Did you actually read the comments on this post? Maybe you should try that instead of taking your usual potshots. SKL, he tarries just for folks like you, who don’t yet know His Son as savior. He wants you to have every opportunity to repent and come to faith. Do you even know why you need HIm? Read the following…please.
Jesus Paid it all.
What did Jesus pay for? Well he paid the necessary payment for our sins, of course. That seems fairly simple, yet the vast majority of the world fails to truly understand exactly what that means. The non believing world, as well as a large part of the “Christian” world totally fails to really understand what the Bible teaches about this issue. Of course the non believing world simply dismisses the issue completely; and within the “Christian” world there are so many perversions and misunderstandings about this issue that they simply cannot be counted.
This series will be a close examination of some of the truths contained in the simple statement, “Jesus paid it all.” In this first part, we will simply discuss the nature of both our sin debt and the payment Jesus made on our behalf for that debt.
Let’s talk about sin. In its simplest meaning, sin is the breaking of God’s law. By God’s Law, we aren’t talking about the Old Testament Law, such as dietary laws and so forth. We are talking about the moral codes of behavior which God has laid out for us to adhere to. God’s law comes out of the aspects of the nature of God. For example, God considers a lie to be a transgression of His law, because God himself cannot lie. God’s Law reflects His character and His Holiness. To not love others trangresses God’s Law, because God is love. God’s Law is not just some arbitrary list of rules, but a reflection of His character, holiness and perfection.
Do we sin? Well of course we do! The Bible teaches that clearly. Romans 3:23 is the most famous scripture verse on this issue, stating that .
All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God
Not only do we all sin, but we were all born into this world as sinners. Because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, all mankind has inherited a sin nature. Romans 5:12 teaches us that,
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
But let’s get more specific. It’s easy to toss out the general idea about how we are all sinners by nature and by choice. But we should actually discuss some particulars of our sin. Most people would agree that the Ten Commandments are a major source of a great number of the specifics of God’s Law. We should give ourselves a test. By the way I fail this test miserably!
Have you ever told a lie? Any lie, small or large. Any lie, whether a little white lie or a big black one? What is a person who tells lies called? A liar of course
Have you ever stolen anything? Big or little. Have you stolen a pencil at work? Run copies on the company printer? Have you cut in line? Then you stole that person’s spot. What do you call someone who steals? A thief of course.
Have you ever used God’s name in vain? This doesn’t even have to be the most obvious one where we actually use His name as a curse word. Have you called Him “the Big Guy?” Any use of the Holy name of God in a flip way is considered blasphemy by God.
Ever looked at a member of the opposite sex with lust? Of course we all have, unless we like the same sex. Jesus taught that to look at a woman with lust is to commit adultery of the heart.
We really have not gotten through all of the Ten Commandments, which are His moral law, and we have established that for the most part we are all lying, stealing, blaspheming adulterers at heart! (Thanks to Ray Comfort for that little test by the way)
So, the only question that remains is: Someday when you stand before God will you be found innocent or guilty? Based on our test, the answer obviously seems guilty is the only possible answer. To really get this, we have to understand and try to look at the issue from God’s perspective. We might look at some of those things and just not consider them to be a big deal; however, God disagrees. The real issue is this: Do we get to rate ourselves, so to speak, against our own human thoughts about right and wrong, or are we subject to the evaluation of a Perfect and Holy God?
Let’s start with something basic. God hates sin. That is an uncomfortable truth, but a truth nonetheless. Why does God hate sin? There are many reasons, and we will cover a few of them. First and foremost, God hates sin because He is Holy and sin is unholy. Sin, simply put, is outside the character of God and it offends Him. Like we said before, the Bible teaches that God cannot lie and that God is love. It flows from His character naturally then, that He would hate liars and those who do not love. God hates our sin because it separates us from Him. Before they rebelled and ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of Eden daily with God, as we learn in Genesis 3:8. After The Fall, they were physically expelled from the Garden of Eden and the presence of God. The Prophet Isaiah was inspired to write the following:
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Our sin separates us from God, yet He created us to commune with and worship Him; therefore He hates anything which separates us from Him.
God hates sin because we will love our sin more than we love Him. God is love, loves us and wants our love. He hates anything which diminishes that love. James covered this in his epistle:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
God hates sin because sin is a sign of our rebellion toward Him. In the Garden of Eden, God only made one rule for Adam and Eve, and that was that they not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Eve succumbed to the tempations presented to her by Satan, and she and Adam ate the fruit anyway. God’s plan was for Adam and Eve to live forever in harmony, in communion and in worship of Him. They chose, however, the things that appealed to them rather than the things that mattered to God. That is what our sin represents to God today. When we sin, we are simply saying to God that we think our way is better than His way.
So, God is the Creator of the Universe and the supreme law giver. He is entitled, by virtue of that position, to make the guidelines by which we live; falling short or refusing to comply with those guidelines offends God’s character and He hates it. Obviously, it seems, any violation of His law makes us guilty of being law breakers. Nonetheless, many come up with various defenses of their actions in attempts to say they really are not guilty. We are going to look at some of those defenses; and we are going to compare what God might think with what any judge in any courtroom in the world wpuld say if these defenses were presented to him or her. That seems fair; we would understand a human judge responding in accordance with the law. It seems we would expect no less of the Supreme Judge of the Universe! For this scenario, just envision being before a human judge, say for the crime of armed robbery and that the penalty for that is imprisonment. This is the law, no exceptions.
“Judge, it wasn’t really a big robbery. I didn’t even use a gun! And I only got a little bit of money anyway.” The law says the penalty for armed robbery is imprisonment, no exceptions. Off to jail says the judge. God likewise does not care about the size of our sin. God is perfect and Holy, remember? A small sin makes us just as guilty as a big on in they eyes of a perfect God. James 2:10 teaches us that a man can keep the whole law and yet offends in one point is still guilty of violation the entire law.
“Judge, I may have committed that robbery, but I never killed anybody!” The law says the penalty for armed robbery is imprisonment, no exceptions. Off to jail says the judge. God is not going to look at all the things we could have done, but did not do. Once again, a violation of the law is a violation of the law.
“Judge, I may have committed that robbery, but did you know I have been working down at the food kitchen helping the homeless for years? What about all the money I gave to charity?” The law says the penalty for armed robbery is imprisonment, no exceptions. Off to jail says the judge. No matter how many good things we may do, they do not make up for our violation of God’s law. We cannot cover our penaly due by doing anything good.
“Judge, look what THAT guy has done!” The law says the penalty for armed robbery is imprisonment, no exceptions. Off to jail says the judge. God is not comparing us to each other to decide our innocence of guilt. He only compares us the the standard of His perfection and Holiness. It only matters what we have done, not what anyone else has done.
“Judge, I’m really, really sorry for committing the armed robbery.” The law says the penalty for armed robbery is imprisonment, no exceptions. Off to jail says the judge. The idea that we could tell a judge we are sorry and expect to be released is really absurd. The law says what the penalty is, and the penalty must be paid. Why would God be any different?
Let’s get serious for a few moments now. Based on the standard of the law, we are all guilty of breaking it. I am; you are, every single one of us is. Someday we will all stand before God and the only possible verdict is a resounding GUILTY! This however, is not armed robbery, and the penalty is not simply imprisonment. What, then is the penalty? God’s Word tells us the answer to that question:
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death………
That’s right, the penalty prescribed in God’s Law for violation of that law is the death penalty. The penalty is not pennance, or purgatory, or a monetary fine or any sort of good works to make up for what we have done. The penalty for our sin is death. What does this mean? Well, after the first sin, it meant physical death. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would have lived forever in their physical forms, in harmony with God. Their sin brought into the world all the sickness and death as we know it today. Death also means spiritual death. Even though we all eventually die physically, we are are all eternal in our spirits. Our spirit, or soul will exist for all eternity. So, again, what is it to spiritually die? Spiritual death is eternal separation from God in a place of toment we call Hell. It’s really that simple. When God says the wages of sin is death, that is the death of which He speaks.
The penalty is due; we all owe it, for we have all sinned and transgressed God’s law. And each and everyone of us can pay that penalty ourselves if we want to. We each owe it, and we can each pay it. I could have payed for my own sin; you can pay for yours if you wish. But that’s the point of this article. We don’t really want to pay our own way; we don’t want to suffer eternal death in a place called Hell.
Although we can certainly pay our own way, we do not have to. The title of this article is Jesus Paid it All, and He did. The Good News of the Gospel is that even though a penalty is was due and payable, it has already been paid! We need to go back to Romans 6:23 and look at the rest of that verse, as we only showed part of it earlier:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God has given us a gift. Even though we owed the penalty of death for our sin, He have us His Son, Jesus Christ as a way for that debt to be satisfied. God became flesh, in the form of Jesus Christ and became incarnate on this Earth for that very reason. Jesus Christ was fully human, so He could pay the price humans owed for their sin; He was also fully God, so He could pay the infinite price of the sin of all humanity past, present and future. Despite how He hates sin, God loves us deeply and completely.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It is a gift, we do not pay a thing for it; Jesus paid it all. We do not deserve it and we do not earn it. All we have to do is accept it. How do we do this? Let’s look at what the Bible teaches about this:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
It’s simple really. We have to confess Him. Basically we have to agree with Him that our sin is wrong and understand we should have paid for it. We agree with God that our sin is wrong and turn away from it. We call that repentance. We also need to believe that Jesus paid the price we should have paid ourselves, and to trust Him as our Savior and Lord. And finally, we do have to call on Him. Romans 10:13 teaches that. The gift is available, and it is free; however God will not force it on anybody. He does require that we call on Him and ask for that gift.
Jesus paid it all. Four words full of meaning. We all have a choice. We can pay our own way or we can accept that Jesus has already paid our way, if only we repent toward God and believe in Jesus Christ.
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March 15, 2015 at 15:52
Amen.
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March 15, 2015 at 17:21
Thank you Anna
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March 15, 2015 at 17:23
Wonderful and timely post human – the human loves it – (I’m loving the brushing she does add she reads it)!😺 It is comforting knowing that though all these Pawful things are happening around us, Jesus Himself knew and forewarned us that it would be this way -and that men’s hearts world “fail them ” fur fear of the things they see coming in this earth. The only way to avoid being paralyzed with fear is to be busy doing what He has called us to do and to be giving THANKS in ALL THINGS- as we are told in 1 Thessalonians 5- the Lord has been teaching the human about the importance of Thanksgiving -even as we see these things happening – and in response she will soon be starting another blog dedicated to thanksgiving!💙
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March 15, 2015 at 18:18
Excellent point about the way to not be so scared is to just be busy doing what God wants us to. Wow, sometimes the comments are better than the post. Thank you.
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March 15, 2015 at 18:50
MOL! 😸 Isn’t God PAWSOME?!
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March 15, 2015 at 23:56
This is so timely and as you know what has been on my part. I have a specific burden for Israel and the Middle East and it has brought my prayer life even deeper. Today in my time with the Lord I just utterly wept because my heart is so broken for my people. I am our there evangelizing all of the time, but have a specific burden on my heart for the Jewish people. Your post is so on point.
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March 16, 2015 at 02:04
Thank you Melissa. I sort of understand your burden. Not totally of course, because they are not “my People”. But, they are God’s people, so in a way they should be ours too. Thanks for the encouragement, it means so much.
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March 16, 2015 at 23:38
God bless you Wally!!!
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March 17, 2015 at 00:10
You as well Melissa
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March 16, 2015 at 00:42
Thank you for reminding us to do the most important thing which is to share the gospel:) Praise God, that Jesus Christ God’s Beloved Son died on the cross for our sins taking the punishment that we deserve and He rose again from the dead having conquered sin, Satan and death and He ascended into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of God waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. Praise God, that as God’s child through faith in Christ, I share in His victories! I am so thankful that I am His redeemed beloved child predestined to share in all the wonders and blessings of His glory. Praise God! Praise God that He saves sinners, just like you and me for His glory. Praise God that His salvation is not contingent upon anything other than repenting of our sin and putting our faith in Him, believing that Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection redeems us from sin and gives us eternal life. Praise God for His Word and His Holy Spirit who opens our hearts and minds to know and understand His glorious grace. God bless us.
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March 16, 2015 at 02:06
And thank you as well Eliza. Your comment is very nice and very relevant. His salvation, in some ways, is easy. Just repentance and faith. If we got out there and spread that, instead of all the other things we place on it, more souls would be saved.
Again, thank you so much for coming by..it’s just wonderful when comments add so much to a post.
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March 16, 2015 at 05:42
Thank you for your kind words, Wally:)
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March 16, 2015 at 14:16
You know what Wally? That was a lot of cutting and pasting you did to answer my very logical reflection. I did not mean to be “gleeful” and I think that is just your perception. I was baptised in a Church of England and if anything the contrary applies to what you are accusing me of. Of course when I was a young boy I was involved with Sunday school and I even had a bible. I read some of the bible as it was insisted that I believe it and if I need to find out something in it these days Google does the job of finding it.
Of course I questioned the teachings of the bible as I got older and concluded it was indeed a historic book written by clever men who realised the value of using a deity to keep the population under some sort of control considering the lack of effective leadership and laws in those days.
The telling a lie, stealing a pencil or lusting after a woman are expressed as sins and the fact that you are born a sinner and are somehow in debt to God anyway is a fantastic concept. Using the extreme measures of ultimate punishment in Hell for sin without forgiveness and blessings from God worked on these people because they realised the impossibility of not sinning so made sure the deity was a perfect but feared God who loved everyone and offered forgiveness. Today these would be expressed as very effective marketing and cunning politics. The Garden of Eden and the Ten Commandments are again just two events marketed in such a way they meet the goal of providing morals and rules to the people. The bible was and still is a brilliant political tool as much as a religious history book.
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March 16, 2015 at 21:13
That’s the third time I’ve read Wally’s paid the price thing.
Repetition gives emphasis?
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March 16, 2015 at 21:18
Perhaps. Although this time it was directed to a different questioner. Eliza feel free to answer the question roughseas asked. About all I can do at the moment is sound bites. But..emphasis on that subject is not a bad thing.
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March 16, 2015 at 23:48
SKL
If I misread what you meant, I apologize. It just seemed you were looking forward to the demise of religion at some point in the future. If not, I am truly sorry.
You have just made some broad, sweeping statements about religion as a tool for controlling the populace, so to speak. Very broad and very sweeping in fact.
You have referred to The Bible as a marketing tool, and I am quite interested to hear the history and facts upon which you base that assertion to tell the truth.
You say you have read…some of the Bible. I really have to say, that unless you have actually read it..and studied it, along with all associated history and culture, then your basis to dismiss it out of hand is really just opinion.
I think what I would like to know and understand is why this is so important. Not only does it seem important that you personally not believe, but it seems quite important that you convince others that it is false. That speaks of motivation and an agenda.
My agenda is clear, and I am very honest about it. I believe every word of God’s Word is true, and that what it reveals about eternity is true as well. My clearly stated goal is to share that with others. There you go, right up front.
Hey, if it holds no appeal or interest to you, so be it. God does not force anyone to accept Him. But, this seems more than just not wanting to accept; it seems very much that you want it to go away.
The problem is SKL, if you make it “go away,” it really doesn’t go away. The truth is true…even if no one believes it on the entire planet.
Final note. Chances are, if you come here, what I see that The Bible teaches is going to be the framework within which all of my answers and responses come. If you don’t want to hear it, or read it…then this is really not the place to be, because that is what ya get here.
May I ask you this? Do you dismiss the existence of God totally? What precisely do you believe about the origins of existence. (note i didn’t say anything about evolution…i mean origins. Also, what you do believe about eternity? Is there one? Or are we just cell collections that someday stop functioning..and poof that is the end? Perhaps if I understood what you believe about those topics we could be more productive in this conversation.
I don’t however, want you to go away. You have my interest in who you are and what motivates your belief system aroused, and I am curious.
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March 16, 2015 at 19:36
So, you yourself concluded that the Bible is a historical book written to control people because there weren’t any laws. Have you ever heard of Greece from whence came democracy or the Roman Empire that ruled its holdings with a fist of iron? No, what is condemned in the Scripture, which Wally only briefly touched upon, was widely endorsed and embraced by all, and those who didn’t follow that lifestyle were thought odd, that would be sexual immorality and intoxication. This is much the same in our age. This is what the Scripture says about these immoral behaviors that are sin:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becomes saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whore monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 1 Peter 4:2-5
So what government was endorsing godly behavior? Not the Greeks, nor the Romans, nor and government today, not our government that’s for sure. No one thinks that these behaviors are bad except those who have been born again through repentant faith in Christ. As a matter of fact, if you don’t live like that then you are considered strange. So we can see that your premise is without merit.
No on the contrary, the historical account of God’s dealing with mankind recorded for us in the Scriptures shows us the goodness and grace of God and the sinfulness of mankind, even the sinfulness of His chosen people. The historical account of Jesus Christ shows us the goodness, mercy, justice, wrath, righteousness and grace of God extended to the sinner through His holy living, and substitutionary death taking the punishment we deserve when He died upon the cross receiving God’s wrath for us, thus fulfilling God’s righteous justice and loving grace. That His death is effective for the sinner to redeem them to God is proven by His resurrection from the dead. He is alive, seated at the right hand of God, and will return to this earth to judge it and then to set up His kingdom here to reign in righteousness. All of this is vindicated by the sinfulness of mankind (just look around and at your own self) and the lives that are changed of those who have repented of their sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ. Your own sinfulness is attested to by the fact that you stand as judge over the Bible which is the Word of God, you call God a liar, and you deny His Son Jesus Christ. This is the fruit of the life of one who is controlled by sin, and you are helpless to do anything about it. You can’t even choose to reform this godless behavior. However, Jesus Christ can give you eternal life, life that is enveloped with knowing Him and the Heavenly Father, and so a life that is different from the life of sin by nature and degree. If you don’t repent of your sin and put your faith in Him you will spend eternity in Hell, a horrible place of eternal torment. You don’t want to go there as certain rich man found out as Jesus revealed to us. May God bless you with repentant faith in His Son Jesus Christ.
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou would send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:19-31
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March 16, 2015 at 19:40
Ty Eliza for those wise words. The support and help of other believers here is so nice
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March 16, 2015 at 21:11
And your knowledge and qualifications about the Greek and Roman empires are?
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March 17, 2015 at 00:01
Hey Roughseas
I hope you are well, and thanks for dropping by again. Hope the weather in Gibraltar is nice. I am thinking it is most of the time.
Not really here to respond, as your question was directed at Eliza, so I hope you two can have a good conversation. I may or may not have anything to offer in that conversation. I mostly just wanted to say Hi.
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March 17, 2015 at 05:57
Yeah. I love being patronised.
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March 17, 2015 at 02:30
It is called history dear.
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March 17, 2015 at 05:58
So your knowledge and qualifications of Greek and Roman history are?
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March 17, 2015 at 17:58
@ elize
Oh my god! This sounds like a line of script from the movie Dumber & Dumber.
Lady, I sincerely hope you get your backside chewed to mincemeat for this.
Hilarious.
But go on, be a sport. Please tell us your qualifications re: Ancient Greece and Rome.
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March 17, 2015 at 18:43
So they had to call in the big dogs for that comment, wow! I am shivering! It stopped that condescending self-righteous smug commenter in her tracks now didn’t it. I said it is called history because it is commonly available for all to read and learn from. One doesn’t have to be an ivory tower elite to have a knowledge of what these particular peoples were like. BTW it is evident from the Scriptures that I quoted that this was the behavior of the people during the time that Rome ruled the earth. So there you go. There are two answers to your question and I won’t even charge you for the extra answer.
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March 17, 2015 at 18:52
Woof!
Such a petulant reply.
Are we feeling peevish for being caught out for being naughty and trying to sound erudite and clever?
Scripture is largely a crock; and as an historical record in many cases is hardly worth the interpolated and pseudoepigraha papyrus it was written on.
If you wish to study commonly available history then why not study the history of Bronze Age Canaan, or the composition of the Pentateuch.
By doing so you will learn what the term Historical Fiction means.
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March 17, 2015 at 19:04
Patience …
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March 17, 2015 at 20:09
Sharing the truth with others only works for those who fear God, because fools despise wisdom and instruction. Therefore, willful rejection of the truth ushers in blindness and the inability for that one to see reality, making them foolish.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
(Proverbs 1:7)
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
(Proverbs 9:10)
If you read my comments, the matter at hand was that all are sinners. That includes you. I am sure what was written was to try and get me off of that point, and it worked for a moment. The fact that sexual immorality and drunkenness has plagued humanity forever is without dispute. Alexander the Great, a Greek, died in his own vomit from being drunk. What a way to go. The Caesars were rife with immorality and wanton godless living. The Scriptures I shared were a rebuke to those living in that evil time, and the times do not change. God’s Word is clear that all who live like this will die in their sins and spend eternity in hell. God’s Word, the Bible, all of it, is clear that sinners sin because they are sinners by nature and there is nothing they can do about it. That includes you. You are a sinner who has only done what a sinner can do which is to be hostile to the knowledge of God. You are helpless in your sin. Just try to turn your heart to seek after God, you do not want to, nor could you do it even if you had the slightest desire. You are lost and bound for hell, where you will spend an eternity in unimaginable torment. That is a sad fact which you will realize when you suffer death and find yourself in that horrible pit from which no one can extricate themselves.
But even now there may be hope for you. I was once just like you. My father raised me as an atheist and I fully embraced what he taught me. However, God in His mercy reached out to me, a sinner and brought me to repentant faith in Jesus Christ. What an amazing God and Savior we serve brothers and sisters. His grace is greater than all our sins. By His wonderful love and mercy He has redeemed us. Through Jesus Christ’s death upon the cross He has reconciled us to Himself and we have confidence in spending eternity with Him because of His resurrection from the dead. Let’s pray for the salvation of these who are lost and trust Jesus Christ to work in their hearts for His praise and glory and for their salvation. Let us always seek to win the lost relying upon God for His grace, trusting Jesus Christ for His mercy, and abiding in the leading of the Holy Spirit. God’s Word, the Bible, is sure and true, we can trust what He has preserved for us and given to us. It remains despite all the attempts throughout history to silence God’s message and it is that powerful weapon that we wield against the attacks of the enemy.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 1 Corinthians 15:1-11
Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Ephesians 6:13-17
89 Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven. 90 Your faithfulness endures to all generations. Psalm 119:89-90
151 You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth. 152 Concerning Your testimonies, I have known of old that You have founded them forever. Psalm 151-152
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March 17, 2015 at 20:39
Thank you Eliza. Cant type much..working. But just to record my thoughts quickly. I as well was in that same lost condition just a few short years ago. Its not that non believers are any more sinful than believers. But believers are forgiven sinners through the payment of Jesus. Elizas words are wise and worth hearing.
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March 17, 2015 at 20:36
Ironical that a large portion of the Christian church is riddled with wanton immorality.
In fact it began from an immoral foundation in the likes of Constantine Eusebius and further back, thr ”apostle” Paul right the way through the Crusades to the Inquisition to idiots like Mother Theresa and George Bush – claiming he was guided to go to war by his god.
The bible itself is replete with incidents of incest and drunkenness and all round debauchery. And your god Yahweh loves nothing than to indulge in a bit of genocide on the weekend.
There is tacit implication that Jesus may have had homosexual tendencies and two of the disciples were ”sons of thunder.”
In fact, if there was a more immoral book than the bible it would probably be another religious tract.
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March 18, 2015 at 00:20
Hey Ark…make uo your mind. If Jesus was a narrative construct He had no tendencies. You are not making sense. Are you so desparate to avoid believing you can’t even keep track of your arguments?. No matter how bad you make God in your mind….you are still accountable to Him.
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March 18, 2015 at 18:19
There are plenty of fictional books where the lead character displays homosexual behaviour.
And in EL James’ book the character are into BDSM. If I comment does this mean I must now consider them real people?
I am not ”desperate” any more than I ”hate”.
I look at the evidence and follow where it leads.
Plain and Simple.
You always seem to display this need to try and make me out to be something I am not. Are you that desperate to hang on to an unsubstantiated belief that you have to rope in atheists to make you feel better about yourself and justify the nonsense you build your worldview around?
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March 19, 2015 at 00:02
Evidence? Hey, look out the window. But in case you don’t understand what I am saying read this
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
You know, I know, we all know God is there as He has implanted that knowledge in us in order for us to someday make a choice…rather like you are making yours everyday.
We even know God’s standards, as He has implanted those in us as well. You ever wonder why universally some things are considered wrong? They didn’t evolve my friend.
Romans 2:14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Ark, God doesn’t care what you think of Him. All that matters is what He thinks of you. Right now, he thinks only about the fact that your sin separates you from Him. He wants to fix that gulf through the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
One final note. Who am I trying to rope in? Last time I checked you are on my blog; I’m not on yours. You don’t want to hear the Bible? Go to an atheist website. Come here, you get God’s Word.
Peace, blessing and prayers. Yep, I said that. Ark, I pray for you daily by name(such as it is).
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March 17, 2015 at 22:59
You are displaying your sin again. Although, I can not argue with you regarding your charges. However, you bring your charges as a reason to not believe in God, which is the default position of any sinner whether religious or not.
Because of the wickedness and rejection of the truth that is extant within the church today, we don’t attend a local church. In our area, it is impossible to find a church where the leadership is not infected with false teaching, which is the main reason there is godless living in the church. The church has been plagued throughout the ages by following the teachings of man rather than the Word of God, the Bible.
As far as your charges against the Word of God, remember that I said it is a historical book which displays the wickedness of sinners, God’s just judgment against them, and the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ to redeem lawbreaking sinners from sin, death and eternal damnation. So what you have said about the Bible is not a revelation to me, or to anyone who is conversant with the text. However, the accurate depiction of the nation of Israel and the Gentiles gives credibility to the Bible as the Word of God because in it God reveals in undeniable clarity the wickedness of mankind, whether religious or irreligious, and His sure just judgment upon all sinners for their wickedness. If this was the work of men, then it would give a depiction of the nation of Israel that has no relation to reality and would sugarcoat sin and its repercussions.
Those who truly believe in Jesus Christ have repented of their sin and have a new nature whereby they hate to sin. If they do sin they confess their sin, receive forgiveness and are established in righteousness by their Savior, Jesus Christ. I can bear testimony to the fact that the sin I embraced as a sinner has never occurred in my life again since I have come to know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. That doesn’t mean I am perfect, but as I walk with the Lord by His Holy Spirit I walk in truth and godliness.
If you are aware of the New Testament, then you would also be aware of the fact that believers can still sin and they are admonished throughout the text to turn from sin and turn to holy living. This is an encouraging text the Lord blessed me with the other day.
22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:22
This underlines our decision to turn from the visible church at this time and to walk with Jesus Christ by relying upon Him, and His Holy Word the Bible, because those who are in positions of leadership are not calling on the Lord out of a pure heart, but for their own nefarious reasons.
Here is a point to think about, if Christ risen from the dead and seated at the right hand of the Father is merciful with His church, genuine believers, and He is, then He will have the same grace and mercy for any who repent of their sin and turn to Him in faith and belief that He is the Savior of mankind and that His death is efficacious for the removal of sin, reconciliation to God the Father, the gift of Holy Spirit and the sure hope of eternal life.
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March 18, 2015 at 18:51
It is important that you understand I do not believe in gods, yours or anyone else’s Eliza, because of the lack of evidence.
I’m simply making observations on the bible and its contents.
I think you quote scripture for your own benefit, Eliza, and that’s fine, but please recognise it has no effect on me. Any more than quoting Harry Potter would. I simply mention this so’ you don’t go to the trouble of typing so much.
Although I can say I have read the entire bible , a feat I was unable to manage with Harry Potter.
I am sure, however, that the bible is considerably more disgusting than anything JK Rowling could have dreamed up, and that’s no maybe, right? 🙂
I have no belief in the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth, whom, based on the evidence, I regard as a narrative construct, thus there is no ”point” to think about.
However, if you have any verifiable evidence for this character then please, feel free to share it and together, we can evaluate it. I have no problem with such an exercise. None at all.
It might be very interesting, in fact.
Regards
Ark.
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March 30, 2015 at 01:52
So you run around reading Christian blogs looking for evidence? I wish, but I don’t think so.
The evidence is in the stars of sky, a bird’s song, the smell of rose, the kiss of a child on your cheek, the taste of bacon and eggs, and the song in your heart. The Words of the Bible exist to satisfy our understanding and to give us direction, and the miracle of the Bible’s existence is evidence too.
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March 30, 2015 at 12:21
No, this is simply evidence of evolution and science. Wonderful is it not?
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March 18, 2015 at 21:17
I quote Scripture since it is the weapon of God that He uses to do His work in the hearts of the unredeemed and redeemed alike. Your attitude again is indicative of the fact that you are a sinner and you just verify what I have said. Scripture is sufficient proof that God exists. Since you refuse to consider that evidence you are undone and bound for hell. Your rejection of God’s testimony in His Word the Bible regarding His Holy Son Jesus Christ who never sinned, is blasphemy, because you call God a liar and you do not believe the testimony He has given about His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony; that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:10-12
Additionally, your blasphemous declarations regarding Jesus Christ God’s Son guarantee, unless you repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ, that the Word that Jesus Christ has spoken will judge you. So you, who presume to be a judge on the Word of God, which is living and active and more powerful than any two-edged sword will be judged by His Word, because the One Who has given it knows all about you and holds you accountable for all.
12 For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thought and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:12-13
47 “And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him–the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak. John 12:47-50
So you bear witness against yourself that you have read the entire Bible and in rebellion against the Lord God Almighty, first demand that He give you proof, but He already has, and then you reject that proof. Whether you accept it or not, you are bound for hell because you are a sinner who has broken God’s law in thought, word and deed. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is your only recourse. He died on the cross and rose again from the dead for sinners so those who repent of their sin and put their faith in Him will have their sins forgiven and have eternal life.
Brothers and sisters, please note, the sharing of God’s Word is efficacious and we have no greater weapon than His Word which works according to all of God’s will. Please note how the Holy Spirit has led me to avoid the traps laid by this child of the devil and has instead led me to efficaciously use His most powerful weapon, His Holy Word. We can quote the Scripture and should not be led into foolish arguments by the devil, which do more harm than good. God’s Word on the contrary will do God’s work in His way, all we have to do is hold forth His Word to this wicked and perverse generation. Then let us in faith undergird this work of the Spirit with prayer to the Father for the glorification of His Son Jesus Christ. May God bless us as we seek to serve and please Him.
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March 19, 2015 at 00:08
Bound for hell? Really>
How dare you!
And this is what makes me rather upset with your religion. That you do not understand it is bad enough. That you mention things that do not exist in the bible and certainly not in the Torah and threaten children with this diatribe is simply evidence that you , Eliza , ae nothing but an ignorant backward cow.
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March 19, 2015 at 00:15
Two points here Ark
Point one…if you don’t want to hear what faces you…go somewhere else. Your anger about it does not change the reality of your separation from God.
Point two.My guests are my guests. Things like calling my commenters ignorant backwards cows won’t be tolerated. As you like to say…are we clear? If not, take a hike. The fact that you ultimately, in every single case, have to resort to name calling shows just how weak your position truly is..ponder on that one for a bit. Clean it up or take a hike.
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March 19, 2015 at 00:17
And condemning me t Hell is okay is it?
You demonstrate a level of morality that leaves a lot to be desired, never mind a level of ignorance pertaining to this erroneous doctrine that I have told you numerous times does not exist in the bible.
Are we clear?
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March 19, 2015 at 00:23
Ark, nobody is condemning you to anything. God isn’t and Eliza and I certainly are not. If you were denied the opportunity to repent and come to faith, then that would be different. You, however, are not denied the opportunity. You have heard the Gospel. God has given you free will. What you do with it is your choice. At the moment, you are making a bad choice.
How’s that pulse doing? Beat..beat..beat…..no more beat. Just that quick. You are but a breath, or lack of breath, from getting all of the answers you ask for constantly. Face to face with the Creator in just an instant.
So, to recap, nobody is condemning you. You are handling that pretty well by your rejection. You may not like it, you may find the idea repulsive, but that does not change the reality of your separation from God.
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March 19, 2015 at 00:25
Hell was created by your god and Eliza said I am bound for hell, did she not?
Don’t play semantics , Wally, you are not clever enough to win that game.
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March 19, 2015 at 00:29
No semantics. Both Eliza and I simply relay to you what the Bible says about the state of all of us unless we repent and believe. The opportunity is your to accept or reject. End of story.
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March 19, 2015 at 08:12
And where in the bible does it say those who don’t believe will be going to Hell, Wally?
I see you didn’t even notice that I mentioned your God created Hell.
That’s how indoctrinated you are because of course, he didn’t , and this just shows how well you don’t know your scripture.
Rather proved the point, in fact.
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March 19, 2015 at 06:07
Reading the Bible through once means you have a passing acquaintance, if that, with the Scriptures, so how can you say the doctrine of hell doesn’t exist in the Scripture. Your false protest against hell is disingenuous, because you want to flagrantly deny God, but you don’t want to be warned about the consequences. All of our actions have consequences, many which are unpleasant. I am sure that you have had to deal with negative consequences simply because you are human. The fact that rejection of the truth about Jesus Christ ensures your condemnation in hell is given in these two Scripture passages. In the first passage Jesus Christ is speaking, in the second passage John the Baptist is testifying to Jesus Christ the Son of God.
16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation; that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:16-21
32 “And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 35 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:32-36
The first passage clearly displays the love of God for the world, but also the response of sinners to that love. If God called to sinners without any requirement of acknowledgment and repentance from sin, which is erroneously taught by many, then sinners would rush to God. But He doesn’t. He demands that the one who comes to Him must turn from sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ.
In the second passage, John the Baptist, the one specifically chosen by God to be the one to testify to Christ, declares that Jesus Christ speaks the words of God, because God gave Him the Holy Spirit without limit. Jesus Christ has received all things from the Father, because the Father loves Him. The Son loves the Father and obeys Him in all things. Those who reject God’s beloved Son reject the only means of being forgiven by the Father and reconciled to Him. Those who believe in Jesus Christ have everlasting life and those who do not believe in Jesus Christ have God’s wrath resting upon them. That is you. God’s wrath rests unabated upon you and unless you repent of your sin and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, the only One who can save you from God’s just judgment in hell, then you are condemned before God by your own choice. Repent and put your faith in the only One Who has the power and the will to save you from eternal damnation.
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March 19, 2015 at 10:40
@Eliza
I can say it quite easily and with confidence because it simply does not feature.
The three words that were eventually amalgamated by the Greek translators were Sheol, Hades and Gehenna.
Nowhere in the Old Testament does Yahweh suggest that disobedience would be rewarded with eternal torture and torment. Nowhere.
Even a cursory glance at a weak source such as Wiki will tell you this.
Thus, a large part of Christian doctrine can be swept away with ne’er a backward glance.
And there are millions of Christians who no longer accept this doctrine.
Even the inventors of Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church, have dome away with purgatory and no longer adhere to this ridiculous nonsense.
The more you try to condemn me the more you sound like the antithesis of what you claim your religion is about – love- and in fact, demonstrate that it is divisive, and creates socially dysfunctional individuals like yourself who have been indoctrinated through a system of reward and punishment based largely on fear and the belief that you are an unworthy person from the moment you took your first breath; an utterly disgusting and abhorrent practice that is tantamount to physiological abuse.
And your vitriol, and bible quoting are all the evidence a neutral reader needs.
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March 19, 2015 at 18:25
I am sorry that you are so ignorant of the Bible. There are numerous places in the OT where it refers to hell, here are just a few:
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. Deuteronomy 32:21-25
Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Job 11:7-8
Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Job 26:6
The LORD is known by the judgment which he executes: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalms 9:16-17
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psalms 55:15-16
Correction is grievous unto him that forsakes the way: and he that hates reproof shall die. Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? A scorner loves not one that reproves him: neither will he go unto the wise. Proverbs 15:10-12
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoices, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. Isaiah 5:14-16
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24
Jesus Christ, Who is God, has much to say about hell also in the New Testament.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/jesus-christ-on-hell/
This post also references the OT. Truly, if believers were diligent students of the Word of God then these atheist trolls would be a little more careful about their false declarations about the Bible. Also, isn’t it strange that one who declares the nonexistence of God is so adamant that hell isn’t found in the Scriptures and then is offended when confronted with the truth about God’s judgment upon that one. Dear atheist if God isn’t real, and hell doesn’t exist and you aren’t going there then why even bother? If we believe in what you consider to be vain imaginings why do you care? There are numerous religions that you could question and attack. Why faith in Jesus Christ? Is it because we point out the truth that people are dead in their trespasses and sins, bound for hell under the just judgment of God and Christ came to save these sinners? Christ does indeed save sinners and transforms them into saints, just as He did to Saul on the rode to Damascus, from Saul the adversary of the Jesus Christ’s church to Paul the champion of Jesus Christ’s church.
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March 20, 2015 at 12:48
Again you are missing the point.
The is no word for hell, (as the Christian’s understand it) in Hebrew.
In the Torah the word used was Sheol. The grave.
In the New it was Gehenna.
When the book was translated it became Hades and then in English, Hell.
Do you understand now?
If not, stop being so damn lazy and please go and do some research.
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March 20, 2015 at 13:14
Ark,
Correction: There is no atheist word for hell.
Jesus referred to it with an Aramaic word that meant, “burning trash pile.”
Today we could certainly use that very same word to refer to that part of Google where atheists get all their bogus ideas about religion and the Bible.
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March 20, 2015 at 13:22
Classic silence
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March 20, 2015 at 13:23
Yes, Gehenna. It was supposedly a vale or valley outside of Jerusalem, where Canaanites were believed to have thrown their rubbish and also conducted human sacrifice.
Well done, SOM.
And it’s nice to see you behaving as only you can … as usual.
Maybe you would like to educate your fellow brethren concerning the real etymology of the word ”Hell” . And explain to Eliza ( and Wally if he’s interested) what Sheol means and where Hades comes from?
And also clarify that Yahweh never condemned anyone to eternal torture or damnation.
Remember, the penalty for ‘sin’ was death.
Away you go. Let’s have a genuine history lesson instead of vitriolic polemic.
It would make a nice change to read this from you.
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March 20, 2015 at 13:32
Ark,
Here is you, in your own words, arguing with yourself and losing:
“The is no word for hell, (as the Christian’s understand it) in Hebrew.”
What part of Google Gehena do you get all your crap from?
No need to answer. It was rhetorical question.
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March 20, 2015 at 13:49
Are you not right in the head, SOM?
No need to answer,.It was a rhetorical question.
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March 20, 2015 at 16:36
Your research has muddled your mind. I showed you from Scripture that God speaks of hell. He talks about destruction of His enemies and sinners there, that is what Hell is eternal destruction of those who reject Christ. If you had bothered to read the post titled Jesus Christ on hell you would have seen that His teaching on hell referenced the passage out of Isaiah. Christ’s reference to that passage in Isaiah underscores God’s promise to judge all those who hate Him in hell. Well, I know that I will listen to Jesus Christ any day on these matters before I’ll give credence to one who hates Him, His Father, and His children. God’s Word is true and you are a liar.
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March 20, 2015 at 16:51
My research is based on the rendition of the text in its original language.
Yahweh makes no mention of hell. Nor eternal damnation or torture in a fiery pit. The term used is Sheol.
Now go and research and stop behaving like an ass.
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March 20, 2015 at 17:05
Your research is without merit. I just answered you and you refuse to accept what God’s Word says. I will not kowtow to your supposed empty and worthless research. God’s Word is sure and true, it has already been translated by men of God who are much more conversant with the original languages than you ever will be, so why do I need your paltry two cents? Hell is where the wicked are punished, I suggest you repent of your sin and put your faith in Jesus Christ.
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March 20, 2015 at 17:17
I have the truth in the Word of God and your cut and paste is a waste of time as in any further discussion with you on this topic. You are bound in sin and deceived by Satan and under God’s judgment reserved for you in hell. Fortunately, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Again, you didn’t site nor explain the passage out of Isaiah which Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior of mankind referenced when He described hell. You are whistling in the dare, ignorant and under God’s just wrath and bound for hell. I pray that God will grant you repentance and salvation.
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March 20, 2015 at 17:31
Every relevant point is referenced with biblical text – chapter and verse.
Jesus spoke of Gehenna. I have mentioned this.
maybe this will be better for you?
Here’s a link written by a Christian.
His explanation is more succinct.
You might appreciate it little more.
Please, take a little time to read it all, especially the explanation of how the words Sheol and Gehenna became the word ”Hell” in the King James Version.
I welcome an honest refutation, but youy have to research stuff first. I did.
YOu owe it to yourself to also research.
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March 20, 2015 at 17:59
Hell is real, it is taught in the Scripture. Unless you repent you are going there. The reference from the OT that Jesus Christ made use of when describing hell doesn’t use the word Gehenna nor does it use the term Sheol.
24 “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. Isaiah 66:24
42 But whoever causes on of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched–44 where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:42-44
Jesus would be using ridiculous hyperbole if hell were not in fact a place of eternal torment and torture. The use of the passage out of Isaiah by God, that is, Jesus Christ, shows without mistake that hell is taught in the OT and you are a liar and all liars are cast into hell. There, that is a sin that you can repent of and then ask Christ to forgive you of. You are being used by Satan to do his work of lying against our wonderful God and misleading the lost. Shame on you and all of those workers of iniquity whom you quote!
8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
You owe it to God to repent of your sin and put your faith in His Son Jesus Christ. There were at least two sins that you are guilty of that for which God condemns you to eternal damnation. If you don’t repent then you are going there as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.
Repent and believe the gospel! Jesus said if you cause one of those who believe in Him to stumble then it would be better to have a millstone put around your neck and to be thrown into the sea. That is His rebuke against you! Lord Jesus Christ make your judgment known to this sinner and silence this wicked worker of iniquity!
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March 20, 2015 at 18:24
Listen, if you wish to behave like a silly ignorant moo, then that’s fine by me. If you wish to ignore irrefutable evidence, that’s fine by me, too. And if you wish to ignore what other Christians emphatically beeieve based on evidence say, that’s fine by me.
And I simply laugh in your face every time you condemn me because this makes you no better than the Devil Himself.
Satan in disguise, perhaps?
Get behind me, Eliza!
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March 20, 2015 at 21:35
Here read this it answers succinctly your specious argument.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/unassailable-doctrine/
I don’t condemn you, I warn you. God’s Word condemns you. That statement was made to Peter when he tried to get in the way of Christ completing His work. You are opposing the work and Word of God. You have been taken captive by Satan to do his will. Repent and believe the gospel.
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March 21, 2015 at 07:49
And you are simply behaving like an ignoramus. Granted, an indoctrinated ignoramus, but still …
Anyway, now that you have been alerted of the etymology of the word Hell and what the actual
words in the bible are ( in the original language) you really have no excuse for supporting this heinous doctrine any longer.
In fact, any honest person would immediately renounce the church’s teaching on this issue and strive to become a more loving and open Christian.
Are you more honest, open and loving?
Are you truly in search of truth?
Well, I have provided you with a perfect opportunity to demonstrate yo show how much integrity and honsty you possess, and I am happy to have been the one to teach you.
If you are going to spread the word of the bible then at least spread the right words – the real truth.
May genuine enlightenment enrich you.
Spread the true word
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March 21, 2015 at 08:17
You are blinded by your sin and the devil. I pray God has mercy on your soul and brings you to salvation. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life and He has revealed Himself to me through His Holy Spirit and through His Word. He who has the Son has life He who does not have the Son does not have life.
I demonstrated with clarity and simplicity from the Bible, rather than fallen sinful man, who you choose to follow, what those words really mean and yes they mean a place of eternal judgment and punishment. It is sorrowful that you are so benighted that you cannot accept the truth, but that is the way of all humanity apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart and mind of the individual. Perhaps God will grant you repentance and bless you with faith in Jesus Christ so that you will have eternal life and not have to suffer eternity in hell. That will be my prayer for you.
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March 21, 2015 at 08:25
I have demonstrated with simplicity and how and why your understanding is wrong , Eliza.
Not from an atheist point of view , but from a Christian point of view. Explained by Christians. Christians who have done the right thing and reexamined the bible.
So, by your reckoning are the Christians who I have referenced then also going to this hell you are convinced exists?
Well, are they?
Are you at least honest enough to condemn them as well?
They ae Christians and do not believe in a literal ”hell”, having read the texts and studied the original words and their meaning.
Are these Christians also going to your version of ”hell”, Eliza; yes or no?
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March 21, 2015 at 08:41
The people you refer to as Christians do not hold the Bible in high regard and do not rightly divide the word of truth. I did. I showed how it is done and why it is done that way. You don’t realize that fallen human nature cannot understand the truth from the Scriptures because God’s Word is spiritually discerned. That means the individual must be born again through faith in Christ and must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This is something that God does in the soul of the individual. Worldly education doesn’t make one able to handle the Word of God correctly. Study of the Word with the illumination of the Holy Spirit enlightens one’s mind to the truth of the Word of God. You are not arguing with me, I simply brought out what the Bible says for the clarity of this godly doctrine of the eternal judgment of sinners in hell by our holy God. You are arguing with God and with His Word which is a very foolhardy thing to do.
Anybody can say they are a Christian, but if they contradict what the Bible clearly teaches they are giving testimony that they don’t really know Christ, belong to the Father, or have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. They are false. They will have to answer to God for their deceitful handling of the Word of God, and leading someone like you into greater deception and perdition.
I have tried to lead you into the truth that you may know the truth and that the truth would set you free. You are aligning yourself with those who are really your enemies, because they are the enemies of God and of His truth. What I taught from the Scriptures, as led by the Holy Spirit, is the truth. If you repent of your sin and put your faith in Jesus Christ, He will forgive you of your sin, cleanse you from all unrighteousness and give you the gift of eternal life. Eternal life means to be with the Father forever, and not spend eternity in hell. It is that simple. I desire that God would open your eyes to the truth.
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March 21, 2015 at 08:53
Yes, you in your ivory tower arrogance do not regard them as Christians, but they regard themselves as such and come across as humble honest folk. I consider their religion nonsense, but this does not detract from their integrity to examine the words in the original and understad them in proper context; something you flatly refuse to do.
The bible was not written in English you silly woman, and thus it’s interpretation in this language is wrong .
Yes, they can can’t they? As do you. And why should anyone believe what you espouse which is saturated in spite and vitriol.
Your method of exegeses and hermeneutics will always arrive at the answer you wish to distill from the text because of the language you are interpreting it from.
This is why I admire those Christians who are prepared to swallow their pride, accept that the church erred, either by accident or design and have at last began to approach the texts with a higher degree of honesty than you could ever possibly reach in you current state on indoctrination.
For what it’s worth, even a Church Father such as Augustine recognised that the church definition of ‘hell’ as you propose was erroneous and used simply to control people.
Go and look him up.
It’s there, in his own words. But I am not going to do all your homework for you , Eliza.,
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March 21, 2015 at 15:35
Thank you for quoting Augustine, who also was a rank heretic. Well, you can follow the heretics to hell if you choose, although I admonish you against that, but I will follow God and His Word. He has promised to preserve His truth and has done so.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 24:34-35
You should do a little studying, then you wouldn’t be so easily deceived and be made to think that you are so wise. Isn’t that a subtle trick of the enemy? The men who translated the texts for the KJV Bible were scholars and experts in the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew languages. I can trust that they got it right, because they were led by God.
Your “scholars” on the other hand are most likely going to a corrupt lexicon to get their definition of these words. These lexicons were written by men devoid of the Holy Spirit. In other words they were led by Satan, just as you are.
If you want to know the true meaning of a text of Scripture, you read it in its context, often times the meaning is clear when one does this. However, if more clarity is needed then you use the Bible to understand the particular passage you are studying as was taught in my most recent post. The Holy Spirit defines His Word and words for us.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2;13
Regrettably, most modern day scholars are raised on a diet of works written by fallen men who really have no interest in the truth but in supporting their disdain for the truth of the Word of God. You are following these men. That is a tragedy. You are being hoodwinked by the enemy of our souls through the works of these liars who are following the father of lies.
I shared the truth with you and any believer will know that the method I used to prove that hell is a real place of eternal judgment and torment reserved for those who transgress against God and His Holy Word, rejecting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, is the way we as God’s children understand His Word.
I will warrant that these scholars also do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God preserved for us. They will deny the Genesis account of Creation, and they will deny that Jesus Christ claimed that He is God. That is the rotten foundation you are trying to use to prove that hell doesn’t exist. You are headed for a disastrous calamity that will engulf you for eternity. Please repent of your sin and put your faith in Jesus Christ. He will clear everything up for you and lead you into all righteousness and truth. Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Him.
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March 21, 2015 at 08:35
Ark,
Maybe you and your merry band of Christians could go and reexamine “Harry Potter,” and then re-educate J. K. Rowling as to the meaning of her great work.
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March 21, 2015 at 08:39
Maybe you could offer a reasoned response to the question regarding the great many and ever growing number of Christians reexamining the biblical texts regarding the doctrine of hell, and the erroneous claims of eternal torture and damnation?
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March 21, 2015 at 09:00
Ark,
I just did offer you a reasoned response, but it went completely over your head, evidently.
I just don’t know how to dumb it down any further for you, sorry.
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March 21, 2015 at 09:05
Well, then. Let me offer you the opportunity to raise your intellectual level a a little?
Please explain why these particular Christians are wrong?
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March 21, 2015 at 09:27
Ark,
I just explained to you why you and your little band of Christians are wrong.
And it only took one sentence.
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March 21, 2015 at 09:30
They are not ”my” Christians. And they are right.
The bible was not composed in English.
Sheol, Hades and Gehenna do not equate to the interpretation of a place of eternal torture.
Tell, me, SOM, if someone as august as Augustine recognised this, what make you believe you are smarter than he?
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March 21, 2015 at 10:00
Ark,
Saint Augustine?
So you’re now seeing dead Christians?
Must be some sort of 6th sense.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:07
Ark,
Here is what the Church teaches on Hell. Beware, it is very simple so be attentive.
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.
Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,”and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;
for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance.”
Reference:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
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March 21, 2015 at 12:20
So, Jesus actually says this does he! lol.
THIS PORTION OF THE COMMENT EDITED. Quit talking like that Ark, people read this who don’t want to see your vulgarity. You never fail to entertain.
Now, do you wish to see Augustine’s quote or not?
It is a simple question.
And as you are simple it you be easy to make a choice.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:36
Edit by all means. Maybe you could help SOM out then and provide the chapter and verse that Jesus of Nazareth is claimed to have espoused this about ”Hell”?
Gehenna was an actual place.
It is now a park outside Jerusalem, by the way. Very pretty I believe.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:45
Nice coincidence, as Hell is an actual place as well.
But, let’s talk about heaven instead. Ark, why would anyone not want to go there? Does the idea of Hell bother you so much that you reject Heaven? Cutting your nose off to spite your face?
You know, it would tickle me pink to bust open the door of heaven and see you there waiting to shake my hand, or vice versa I suppose. I pray for you daily by name that you might soften your heart, repent and come to faith in Jesus Christ.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:52
No, you are not going to sidestep the issue.
You cannot possibly be so utterly dense.
The Church denies it the longstanding definition of hell as being a place of eternal torture and . The Church that put together the first bible.
The Church that defined your religion and your faith.
So you are either acknowledging their honesty and integrity on this issue or simply suggesting they are liars.
Which is it?
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March 21, 2015 at 13:46
Im not? Really? you are in charge here? You are a bully Ark. Or, you try to be anyway.
Ok. real slow here. Wipe the foam from your mouth and listen.
Anybody that teaches the non existence of Hell is either….mistaken…or lying. Easy.
Now…back the the question I have asked over and over…Do you talk to your devout Christian mother the way you talk to believers on here?
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March 21, 2015 at 13:55
We’ll get to my mum, no problem, I promise, although I have answered this asinine question several times before.Maybe your attention span is limited or you simply forgot?
First though, I would like you to clarify for me, if you will: Please explain why and on what grounds you disagree with qualified biblical scholars who are exert in Hebrew and Greek regarding the correct translation of the words,Sheol Hades and Gehenna?
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March 21, 2015 at 14:13
That’s been answered over and over and yet over again not wasting my time
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March 21, 2015 at 15:35
No, you have merely denied it. I want you to explain in scholastic terms why you flat out reject the view of expert Biblical Scholars.
If you are not prepared to or, as I suspect , not able to because you simply do not understand and are in no position to offer an educated, informed response thanI will take you are simply hiding behind ignorant indoctrination – as I suspect.
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March 21, 2015 at 15:43
You take it anyway you want. Now tell me how your reacts when you call her an indoctrinated fool or st such. I’m pretty sure if you did your father would pass you through the wall.
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March 21, 2015 at 15:47
I said I would but this need to be sorted out first. ( I gave you my word, and I am a man of my word)
So, why do you deny what biblical experts ( christians) finally realise about the tern hell?
On what grounds, Wally?
Are you afraid to state your reasons?
If not, let’s hear them.
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March 21, 2015 at 14:35
Ark,
I am a “qualified biblical scholar” who is not an expert in either Hebrew or Greek.
How can that be?
Like the universe, I my qualifications and expertise just happened all by themselves..
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March 21, 2015 at 15:36
I wonder if anyone else can make sense of this?
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March 21, 2015 at 15:39
Ark,
They can make sense out of this the same way everyone makes sense out of you.
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March 21, 2015 at 15:45
Oh, so you understand what the words Sheol and Gehenna mean then?
You are a Catholic, right?
What do you think the reason is that the latest up to date version of your bible explains what the words really mean?
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March 21, 2015 at 15:55
Ark,
What we see with your latest comment is you trying to make sense out of yourself, and failing miserably.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:03
Hey dipstick, how about some erudition and explain to your protestant brothers the truth about what the Catholics think about hell these days, and nit that gritty archives article you frigging snatched at the top of you damn Google search.
Remember, SOM, this lot don’t even think you are a proper Christian!
Ask Wally. Maybe foronce he will give an honest answer and tell the truth.
It would be a first.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:07
Ark,
I tried to make sense out of your last comment but failed miserably, too
Sorry about that. I guess that makes us soul brothers.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:09
Ark your stupid heretic links are going to spam
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March 21, 2015 at 17:03
Heretic? Which links are these Wally? They are CHRISTIAN, links.
Something you are definitely not one of.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:15
Ark,
I don’t think you think that I’m a proper Christian either.
I guess that makes you and Wally soul brothers, too.
Halleluiah!
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March 21, 2015 at 16:23
Thats funny lol
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March 21, 2015 at 17:16
Oh, I think you are a Christian, right down to your moronic, soul.
No one could that stupid and not be a Christian. In fact you, Eliza and Colostorm might well be joined at the metaphorical hip.
It is simply you are a different brand of christian, SOM.
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March 21, 2015 at 17:21
Ahhh….the refuge of the lost and clueless. Slander and insults.
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March 21, 2015 at 17:32
So you think a word such as Dickhead is more of an insult that stating I am going to burn in Hell for eternity?
Ah … Christian love is such a blessing.
Yes, I can see where you got your morality from, Wally.
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March 21, 2015 at 20:33
Thank you for the compliment. Colorstorm loves the Lord Jess Christ as do I.
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March 21, 2015 at 21:07
Oops! He loves the Lord Jesus Christ as do I.
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March 29, 2015 at 20:59
My mistake is due to using the IPHONE while riding in the car, plus I am new to using the phone. Being a smart Alec just makes your argument look weak. So old earth geologists came at the geologic features with bias against the biblical account of the worldwide flood. You hold the same bias, as do all who hold to be evolution. God’s word will not return void. He will save those He has called and yes they will believe the Bible in humble faith.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:09
Don’t do that Eliza the phone thing I mean. Not smart. I have a comment for all Christians on this thread. Does any one even remember the topic? What should Christians be worried about? Kind of ironic really.
I am a young earth adherent myself. One of my most esteemed mentors in my church is not. We two can nonetheless hit the street and share the same gospel.
Just sayin
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March 29, 2015 at 21:13
“Does any one even remember the topic?”
Good point. I only jumped in here, because Eliza said she was a scientist. I was curious how she, as a scientist, viewed the young earth/global flood hypothesis. I believe that I have my answer.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:23
I think discussions like this are beneficial, because how can we go out and do good in the name of Jesus Christ if we don’t know his Word?
Young Earth theory, like atheism is the complete rejection of science and reason.
It is critically important that people who think like atheists, not assign their own meaning to Holy Scripture the way atheists do.
Therefore, robust conversations like the ones here are related to the topic of doing according to the Word of God, the Bible.
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March 30, 2015 at 12:17
SOM, maybe you can answer this for me, please
as I am struggling to get get a direct answer from everyone else.
Does a Young Earth Creationist like Eliza, believe Old Earthers have corrupted biblical interpretation and are thus all doomed to Hell?
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March 30, 2015 at 13:04
Ark,
It’s like Wally said, the requirement to be a Christian is to profess that Jesus is Lord and then repent, be baptized and follow him.
What someone believes about other things like YEC, for example, is not necessary for salvation.
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March 30, 2015 at 13:13
I have someone in Eliza’s blog telling me diferently, albeit in a sbtle round about way.
here … let me quote.
He goes on to say …
This seem pretty forthright to me. You are likely going to hell if you do not believe in a literal understanding of the bible.
What say you, now?
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March 30, 2015 at 13:20
Ark,
Christian doctrine on the requirements for salvation is well established.
There is nothing in Holy Scripture that says believing in YEC is a requirement for salvation.
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March 30, 2015 at 14:13
Thank you, Som. This is what I always understood to be the case.
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April 4, 2015 at 12:28
Hi Wally
I have been browsing through the discussion thread on this post. It was depressing to see the intolerance on both sides. So I found this comment of yours to be refreshing, especially your second paragraph regarding your capacity to share the gospel with a mentor who was not a young earth adherent.
The Apostle Thomas asked to see evidence of the risen Christ before he believed. As Christ is ascended in heaven it is now to the Church and to the Bible that people look for that evidence. The issue is what do people see when they look in these places?
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April 4, 2015 at 12:44
That question bears some explanation Peter, not sure I understood what you were asking.
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April 4, 2015 at 13:17
Peter
I think I understand what you are asking.
In the church. Do outsiders always see what they should and do we Christians always act the way we should. Nah. Then again, you or anybody else are not accountable for the choices others make, only our own. So, in many ways the behavior of Christians is irrelevant. Especially to you I might add, since you are not really an outsider. You have seen the truth.
The Bible? Well, you believed it once, now you seem not to. Not to sound harsh, Peter, but is the issue with the Book or with the reader? Think on that on, Brother.
One last note, Don’t misunderstand my willingness to word side by side with a man who believes the world might be old. That fellow still believes that God literally spoke the world into existence. As do I.
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April 5, 2015 at 03:35
Hi Wally
A few years ago I read a book by Francis Collins, ‘The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief’. He is a Christian and a scientist, He sought to find a mediating position that could accept science and the Bible. Much like Hugh Ross of ‘Reasons to Believe’.
What I found interesting was that these tow men seemed to be attacked by people on both sides of the debate. Collins in particular has been subject to vilification as he seen as the driving force behind Theistic Evolution. Collins is no light weight in the scientific community so his views are worthy of at least consideration. His contention is that there is just way too much evidence in favour of evolution to dismiss it out of hand.
When I started to seriously study the Bible it became apparent to me that we can assume there is only one way of interpreting the text. However it may be that there are other ways we had not contemplated. An example I will provide is the death of Joseph of Joshua. They are both recorded as dying at the age of 110. To the modern reader this is a clear statement of their age, however is that really what the text is telling us? In the ancient world, especially the Egyptian culture from which the Israelite’s had emerged to say someone died at 110 was akin to saying they had lived a good and honorable life, it did not necessarily mean that was their actual age when they died. So an ancient person looking at the text might interpret it quite differently from a modern reader. My rhetorical question is which interpreter would be correct?
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April 5, 2015 at 11:54
Peter, this is very simple, really. And, as I said, I am not going to pick the Bible apart word for word with you.
The text says Joshua was 110. If you really want to allegorize that, it is because you want to. That’s very simple, as it says what it says.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:10
Was this comment for me or SoM? Who’s the “smart Alec” and why?
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March 29, 2015 at 21:13
David does it really matter? This post really needs to get back to its original topic.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:15
David and smart go together nicely (so says my cousin David) so it must be you.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:18
Lol dunno silence you sometimes are rather in your face. Which is ok by me just an observation.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:23
So, you want to answer the question regarding Eliza’s comment on YECs on your blog rather, then Wally?
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March 29, 2015 at 21:25
Ark don’t be stupid I won’t tell you what another person thinks
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March 29, 2015 at 21:28
I am not asking you to tell me what she thinks . Don’t be so damn ridiculous.
I am asking you if her views on YEC doctrine are correct. Oh, and you owe me another apology. You know what for.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:38
I told you my view of your question. Apology for calling you a liar? No I don’t you are. And that is the end of this on this thread
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March 29, 2015 at 21:28
Wally,
Since when is being “in your face” the same thing as “smart.”
Truth to tell, I’ve been trying to get smarter so that I will be less and less “in your face.”
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March 29, 2015 at 21:39
Silence you may have a point there
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March 31, 2015 at 07:45
You because you knew what I meant based on our previous comments.
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March 21, 2015 at 20:37
Yeah that puts you in good company Eliza for sure
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March 21, 2015 at 14:24
Ark,
Since Jesus is the authority on his own doctrine, one your quaky quotes just wouldn’t be appropriate.
But thanks for the offer. That was very atheist of you.
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March 21, 2015 at 11:58
Ark, am I to assume from your constant references to scripture in the original languages that you read both Hebrew and Greek? You keep pounding my friends for their lack of understanding of this oh so simply fact.
Here’s the deal. You don’t read Hebrew and Greek, and we all know that. So, you do the same thing most of us do who do not read the original languages. You rely on the translations of others, dictionaries and such. In your case, you rely on Google.
I see a trend here, You are the king of Google and the cut and paste. You are doing nothing more than finding a viewpoint you like and then regurgitating it on here. Word for word it seems.
Your links are a useless and a waste. They were written by people desperately wanting to deny the existence of a place of eternal separation from God and torment, because they find the idea repulsive. Too bad, so sad for them really.
What these people you have quoted teach is annihilation ism, that the soul is simply eradicated upon death. They rather like the doctrine of Heaven, but not so much the Doctrine of Hell.
You asked Eliza if these people claiming to be Christian are true Christians. Short answer..no absolutely not. I can claim to be a bear, but that does not make it so. One can claim to be Christian and that does not make it so.
The world if full of rank heresies from people claiming this particular one, most notably folks like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christadelphians. The Mormons also have a limited doctrine concerning Hell.
Look, Ark, for you to argue that the Doctrine of eternal separation from God and punishment is not a Biblical Doctrine is absurd. It simply does not make sense. I won’t rehash the scriptures which show that, as all you have to do is read what Eliza has posted. She has done a fine job of presenting this theme. The problem is, you never actually read what any one else writes, you just respond with your knee jerk pre planned actions.
I do have a question though. You informed me once that your mother is a devout Christian. Do you speak to her in the way you speak to Christians on here? Do you insult, demean, and call her horrible names. I sure hope not. Then I would ask, if not, why do you do it here?
You have an agenda Ark, and it is obvious. You want to “deconvert” Christians if possible, and prevent others from coming to faith. You keep harping about how all would be well if we would just shut up. Same to ya friend. Nobody is cruising to your blog and assaulting you and your friends.
Final note, these endless debates about Hell on this thread are done. As the blog owner, that’s my call. Now, you can go along like a nice human, or not. But, if you keep it up, don’t be crying like a baby when you get moderated that they Christians are censoring you. It’s just time to move along.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:33
No I do n ot read Hebrew or Greek. But I am reasonable intelligent enough to access dictionaries that provide accurate translations.
So,here’s the deal.
I realise you are an indoctrinated fundamentalist and part of this deal is that you are actively discouraged from making serious inquiry.
Yet you state you actively pursue truth?
Scientific evidence has provided demonstrated that the Pentateuch is fiction and all recognised archaeologist acknowledge this. You don’t.
So who must I believe?
Are you an archaeologist to deny this large corpus of scientists? No. ( Me neither)
The same criteria applies to biblical exegesis.
The experts -including Christians – recognise that the Christian version of hell is nonsense.
Are you an expert on hermeneutics, etymology and biblical exegeses? No.
(Me neither)
You believe what you have been brought up to believe. It is a simple as that.
Maybe you should read the most up to date version of the Catholic Bible, Wally. There are even damn footnotes explaining the etymology of the words.
Do you understand, Wally? The church that was responsible for putting the first bible together is now, at long last, not only denying this sick interpretation but providing the actual meaning of the words in their original language.
Not me, not some god hating New Atheist but the Church.
Do you understand the significance, Wally.
It is bulldust, Are we clear? You have been conned and lied to.
So now you can take a deep breath , relax and not worry about ”hell” ever again.
Got it? Super
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March 21, 2015 at 12:40
Hey Ark
Again, you are mistaken. I am not worried about it, as I will spend eternity with my Lord Jesus Christ.
But, I ask you again. You said your mother is a devout Christian. Do you mix and match her body parts when you address her as you did with SoM? Really Ark, do you speak to her the way you speak to believers on here? I so certainly hope not.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:42
So, you concur at last; that the doctrine of hell, of eternal punishment is simply bullshit.
Excellent! So, it seems you are open to the truth after all. Well done.
Now, as a believer maybe you should do a few posts to demonstrate you new found enlightenment and tell you brethren what the words really mean.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:49
So, you concur at last; that the doctrine of hell, of eternal punishment is simply ******
Who are you talking to? I conceded no such thing. I simply said I would spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus.
For you to twist those words in a way to make it appear I said I was rejecting the doctrine of hell is an outright lie. Not a mistake, not disingenuous, but an outright lie.
Last request. watch your filthy mouth. I don’t want it on this blog. Comply or you won’t be posting her anymore. Which, I know makes you happy so you can go brag to your friends how you got banned from another blog and feel like a big hero. I ask nicely for you to do this and even say please.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:53
Then please address the question, regarding the Church’s view of Hell.
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March 20, 2015 at 23:05
Well if it’s fine by you why are you hanging around? No matter how much you argue the reality won’t change. Oh ark why do you kick against the pricks`
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March 21, 2015 at 07:43
There’s always a chance to educate one lost soul. And of course, the ‘lurkers’ in the background are entitled to read the truth, don’t you think?
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March 19, 2015 at 13:27
Wally, even I’m thinking double standards here.
OK for Sailordale to refer to me as an old shriveled up woman. Remember that? Sure you said it wasn’t nice. Gentle tap on knuckles.
And OK for Eliza to patronisingly refer to me as ‘dear’ regarding my questioning of her knowledge of history. Because her reference to the bible as a true and accurate primary source of history is pitiable.
Finally, here we have another insulting comment from Eliza: ‘condescending self-righteous smug commenter’. Condescending? Not so far, but I’m sure I can work on it. Self-righteous? Oh no, I leave that to the God Squad. Smug? About what? Why? Irrelevant. However, regardless of all that, these are personal insults. They are not objective replies to my comments.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think I’ve yet stooped to insulting your religious commenters and some of their many asinine comments. Why is it ok for them to insult me? Just answer that without telling me I am a sinner and that Jesus paid the price on that long playing record of yours.
Ark gets a warning to take a hike, and your religious brethren and sisters are always warmly welcomed. Regardless of the insults they post.
Enjoy your holiday 🙂
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March 19, 2015 at 13:41
Thank you friend I will
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March 19, 2015 at 16:03
Don’t worry, Roughseas, I have no compunction about calling out people when they put on their Liar for Jesus Hat .
Wally dare not ban me otherwise his prayers will have been wasted.
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March 19, 2015 at 16:05
This wasn’t addressed at you, ‘dear’. I wanted to know why it’s OK for the bros and the sisses in the fold to be rude to heathens, but said heathens have to watch their sinful steps.
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March 19, 2015 at 16:14
I realise you weren’t addressing me, ‘dear’, I just thought I’d reassure you that all my endearments are sent with your will wishes too.
Jesus might not be guilty of double standards but his followers are past masters of the theological two-step. Surely you have noticed?
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March 19, 2015 at 19:19
What I’ve noticed is that you are getting your fair share of sermonising 😀 thank the lord for cut and paste. Saves coming up with a real answer hey?
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March 19, 2015 at 18:26
It is unseemly that you would defend yourself, you should let someone else do it who knows you.
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March 19, 2015 at 23:16
I don’t understand your reference. What or who is unseemly? How and in what respect?
Plus:
I said it is called history because it is commonly available for all to read and learn from. One doesn’t have to be an ivory tower elite to have a knowledge of what these particular peoples were like. BTW it is evident from the Scriptures that I quoted that this was the behavior of the people during the time that Rome ruled the earth.
And this is the extent of your historical knowledge of the early Roman Empire? A reference to your bible?
‘Rome ruled the earth’? Really.
The Roman Empire (like all empires) had boundaries beyond which it did not extend. For example, it did not rule the far north of Caledonia and erected numerous walls to mark the limitation of the empire. That is one tiny example of how Rome did not rule the earth.
I would suggest you do not get out of your depth.
And also be aware that your bible is not used as a primary source for ancient and medieval history and archaeology. Historians and archaeologists tend to use contemporary and verifiable sources rather than fiction.
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March 19, 2015 at 23:39
Roughseas
That comment was made in light of the fact that SKL said religion was only developed as a tool for bringing the people under control. Eliza’s point was that the society of the time was in pretty good control, but among others the Roman Empire. It doesn’t take a history degree to figure that out.
I also take exception with the constant bombardment of the idea that Christians are undereducated buffoons. There seems to be a consensus that, if we would only get some education, we would toss all of this silly Christianity out. Well, the problem is, the world is chock full of very educated and intelligent Christians, who still believe.
That constant being told we are just stupid is quite condescending and patronizing to tell the truth.
Um..The Bible not considered a primary source. You are actually mistaken there as many do consider it a primary source of history. It may not be people you agree with, but it is many. If fact, it is many who are quite well educated, degreed, and capable of critical though.
Peace.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:07
That comment was made in light of the fact that SKL said religion was only developed as a tool for bringing the people under control. Eliza’s point was that the society of the time was in pretty good control, but among others the Roman Empire. It doesn’t take a history degree to figure that out.
No, that wasn’t what she said at all. She said this was the behavior of the people during the time that Rome ruled the earth.
And factually speaking, Rome did not rule the earth. Do you all twist history every way you can?
Do you understand anything at all about the politics of the Roman Empire?
I don’t care two hoots whether or not you think it needs a history degree. The point about having a history degree is that one learns to differentiate between credible and incredible sources.
I also take exception with the constant bombardment of the idea that Christians are undereducated buffoons.
And I take exception with being patronised and having my words twisted.
Now, who said Christians were uneducated buffoons? Not me. So, please stop putting your interpretation onto my words. Although this seems to be a Christian thing,
There seems to be a consensus that, if we would only get some education, we would toss all of this silly Christianity out. Well, the problem is, the world is chock full of very educated and intelligent Christians, who still believe.
I have no idea about that. Luckily.
That constant being told we are just stupid, is quite condescending and patronising to tell the truth.
I have not told anyone they are stupid. Well? Have I? But I have been insulted and patronised on your blog so back off from the hard done by Christian stance.
Um..The Bible not considered a primary source. You are actually mistaken there as many do consider it a primary source of history. It may not be people you agree with, but it is many. If fact, it is many who are quite well educated, degreed, and capable of critical though
Are you telling me that the bible is now a standard primary source for all ancient and medieval history and archaeology degrees? You are having a laugh and you need your holiday.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:12
Hey. ..a point of agreement. I do need my holiday. Funny the language usage. Holiday is just a date. I say I’m going on vacation. Interesting.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:33
Vacation is an Americanism. I’m getting used to them. We go on holiday. Well, me personally I don’t, but that’s what British people do. We have holidays. I’m surprised you don’t. Where do you think the word comes from? 😀 Holy Days?
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March 20, 2015 at 00:38
Yep..it does come from that. I worked with NATO folks a lot years back and they almost all said Holiday.
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March 26, 2015 at 07:46
Roughseas, I apologize for calling you smug, self-righteous and condescending. It was unkind of me to do that.
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April 3, 2015 at 14:01
Hi Eliza. Thank you for that. I accept your apology.
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March 19, 2015 at 13:46
The thing is that as Christians you guys have this crazy idea that you are better informed than non-believers in the way that only you and your fellow Christians know the truth about everything and know without any doubt that every part of the bible contains unmitigated facts.
You are totally convinced that a hell exists and the fact is you are “scared to hell” literally and this is exactly what this story where ever it originated was designed to do to uneducated and illiterate people in the days of farmers and goat herders who basically asked the same questions we ask today, but only got the answers that religion provided as they knew of nothing else.
Part of the overall package for Christians is to try and save atheists or non-believers; however that is almost like having the inmates in charge of the loony bin because we are not the ones who need saving…..
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March 19, 2015 at 18:51
So only today people are informed? There have never been intelligent well informed people during history who have believed in the Bible? You are woefully ignorant of history as you are about the Bible and faith in Christ. A great number of the scientists whose work today’s research is based upon believed in the Bible literally. Robert Boyle, a very famous scientist, paid to have the Bible translated into languages that did not have the Bible in that tongue. You can look him up if you choose. Others you should look up are James Clerk Maxwell who knew the Bible thoroughly at an early age and James Prescott Joule whose tombstone has Scripture inscribed on it. These men made great contributions to humanity, what have you done with your unbelief but promote error, ignorance and evil.
I am afraid that you are ignorant and foolish. It truly isn’t justified for any to try to encourage you with the truth from the Word of God. Since I know this, most of what I wrote was for the benefit of others, not necessarily you. If you don’t want to have God’s children share the truth with you then don’t go to their sites, plenty simple.
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one. Psalms 14:1-3
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March 30, 2015 at 02:28
SKL – Actually, born again Christians have no reason to be frightened of Hell. That is the point of being born again. And if we are concerned about the state of your soul, what that a problem? Are you afraid a Christian will force you to go to church. If he did, the Good Book would tell him he is wrong.
Are Christians better informed than non-believers? Probably not, but Christians do generally have different priorities. That is because we believe the Bible, and the Bible has been show to be a reliable historical record as well as the primary source of Godly Wisdom.
Have you considered that Christianity doesn’t really have many rules. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as you love yourself?
What is wrong with loving God? He is the best Daddy we could have, and He loves us more than we can hope to love Him.
What is wrong with loving your neighbor? If he gets out-of-line and starts robbing banks, you can still throw him in jail. That’s tough love, but it is usually not necessary. In time, most people return love with love.
Actually, when tyrants want to control a people, they divide them to conquer them. Tyrants spread hatred, strife and fear. Look at any of the great tyrannies. You will see people who made the state or a “great leader” their idol; if they ever were Christians, they set Jesus aside, and that is why they lost their freedom. To be free, we must first be freed from sin.
In fact, the great idols of our age are sex, state, science, stuff, and self. When we worship these things, we pervert them. Then we can be easily manipulated. Because loving our Creator and loving our neighbor protects us from sin, it protects from manipulation.
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March 30, 2015 at 12:10
There actually is no Hell, as er Christian spec ( eternal damnation and torture) Tom and any half- decent student of theology and biblical exegeses and hermeneutics would know this.
Sp why don’t you?
If adults wish to remain ignorant and believe this nonsense then that’s their choice.
But to inculcate kids? No, sir that is most certainly child abuse.
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March 19, 2015 at 19:05
So Ark, Jesus is just a construct but He isn’t guilty of double standards, but His followers are? Thou speakest with a forked tongue! How could the figment of men’s imaginations be ascribed behavior if He doesn’t exist? You know He exists, just like the demons, and you tremble. Come over from the dark side and put your faith in the light. Unlike the demons, Christ can save you.
12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” John 8:12
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March 19, 2015 at 22:12
Crisis always brings opportunity.
And the greatest opportunity for Christians is to keep living their lives as disciples.
Just look at the atheists and how they mimic Christian values thinking that those values, like the universe, just happened all by themselves.
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March 19, 2015 at 23:18
SoM. I would be embarrassed to mimic Christian values.
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March 19, 2015 at 23:26
rough,
You just keep telling yourself that and everything will be okay.
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March 19, 2015 at 23:34
Roughseas,
I think you actually missed the point of what SoM was saying. It has to do with the source of moral and ethical values.
Look, I am not a philosopher, scientist, or historian, but I can understand certain things quite clearly. One of these things is the nature of the source of morality.
It’s quite simple. If morals evolved, then there are no morals. There is only what operates for the good of a particular person, group, tribe, city and perhaps even nation. Morality through natural selection is not morality; it is contingency. What ever works best is moral. If there is no absolute moral standard, then there is, in fact, no morality. If there are not rules, then what rules can actually be broken?
On the other hand, if there are absolute moral standards, then there is a standard giver..as standard maker…a law giver. Evolved morality can never be absolute, therefore under the right circumstances, anything goes.
If any person says that any single thing is wrong under every single circumstance, then that standard, or law, was given. Guess who? Yep…God.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:08
Well you could always work out your own personal moral ethical code. Is that too difficult? Or do you need a book of rules for everything?
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March 20, 2015 at 00:13
Well if we each work out our own personal code..who’s code is right?
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March 20, 2015 at 00:30
I think mine’s good enough for me. That’s what matters. That I can answer to myself. You can’t do that because you absolve responsibility. Think about it. You, take, no, responsibility, for, anything. You pile it all on your god. Or blame it on sin. Or some other irrelevancy.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:35
rough,
In “I think mine’s good enough for me,” you refer to yourself three times.
The entire sentence has only seven words.
And therein lies the problem with atheist morals: it’s all about you.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:37
If we all answer to only ourselves then what becomes wrong?. What if I told you that the things I say are wrong were just my own ideas instead of God’s? Would they then be ok? After all…they are just my personally develope moral code.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:45
Why do you not believe in people?
Don’t you trust or have faith in people?
Do you think people can’t have a moral code?
Or do you think we are all idiots? Seriously, is your moral code better than mine? No, you will tell me your code is god’s code.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:51
Thats not my question. If we each operate according to our own personally developed code…the nobody is wrong. You say I am..but how can I be? How can you be? Who decides when individually developed moral codes conflict?
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March 20, 2015 at 00:55
Not a cop out but I need to go to sleep. Night night.
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March 20, 2015 at 00:57
Sleep well Kate
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March 20, 2015 at 00:53
rough,
The fact that even in the most civilized nations, there are military and police forces put the lie to your naïve notion that people are basically good.
Goodness has to be learned otherwise justice is always to the advantage of the stronger.
If human beings are naturally good, why do parents put so much effort into teaching their kids to be good.
Does the atheist also think that goodness also happens all by itself?
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March 19, 2015 at 23:42
“Crisis always brings opportunity.”
SoM…i really liked that. I think the spread of the early church is a great example of it. And, as you said, that was because they walked the talk. They were even willing to die for it if needed.
Remember the song? Nothing from nothing leaves nothing..Billy Preston I think. Well, nothing plus nothing equals…NOTHING. Right?
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March 20, 2015 at 06:07
In answer to Roughseas question about having faith in people I am amazed at her naivety. I have a bridge that I want to sell you. Seriously though, think about the state of the world during that last century. Humanity greeted the beginning of the 20th century with hope and optimism, but it turned out to be the most murderous century in history. Over 187 million people died due to war, 98 million were murdered under communist regimes, and another 28 million murdered by fascist regimes. The abortion total in the 20th century is between 1-2 billion in just 50 years, while the total number murdered after birth is 8.5 million people. So far we have just looked at violent deaths against innocent people, this doesn’t cover rape, slavery, theft, extortion, robbery, slander, pedophilia, etc. Then, of course, we have the murder, hatred, war and chaos being produced by Islamist radicals during this century. All of this looks at two most recent centuries, without looking back at all of the war, horror, oppression and corruption that has plagued mankind through the millennia. And these hopelessly optimistic atheists think we should have faith in people. Have they ever watched or read Lord of the Flies? Are they completely ignorant of the evil that has controlled this planet since the Fall? This is the state of humanity. If not for the controlling factors of government and religion chaos would rule and reign overall. I will gladly trust in God, His Word and His commandments for living a life that is pleasing to Him and kind to others and pray that others will repent of their sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ so they too can follow Him and obey God’s Word.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:17
Eliza, I do take exception to your assessment of my character.
And yes, I have read Lord of the Flies.
Not only do you question my knowledge of ancient and medieval history and archaeology you are hitting on my english lit. Is there any subject on which you are not a world expert. Perhaps you can wow me with linguistics next or management. No doubt you are skilled in those too and your quals will far excel mine. Chica.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:41
Actually, when I took linguistics, I was one of the individuals who was chosen by the professor to consider a career in linguistics, and as a teacher, yes I do have managerial skills. Not to worry though, I know there are many who are experts. I rely upon my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and He directs my path.
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March 20, 2015 at 13:52
Eliza, you appear very narrow minded and gullible. For a start in your earlier comment about the rule of the Romans. The Romans may have had laws but they were a corrupt and violent occupying force and it would have been impossible to have control of most of the country. If you understood something about military occupation and actually took some unbiased interest in historic facts from real history experts you would see that the people were not living under a judicial system of any fairness and accountability such as you enjoy today.
It appears only logical that the 20th century was “the most murderous century in history” Think about the modern weapon development and the population growth just mention the obvious ones.
“And these hopelessly optimistic atheists think we should have faith in people” Yes we should put our faith in real people. Man has been at war or in your case creating evil since he was a cave man, (I doubt you believe they existed however). Religion is not going to save the world, it never will and in fact usually has a detrimental effect on peace. We must have faith in people to survive, that is what works best and as much as I do not agree with my government I have a certain amount of faith that they will not start a war that will put us in danger of a nuclear strike or worse.
“Are they completely ignorant of the evil that has controlled this planet” Humans tend to take advantage of the lack of accountability for their actions and unfortunately there are many bad people religious and non-religious alike who are in positions of power. Many make the wrong decisions and I guess some could be classed as evil.
“If not for the controlling factors of government and religion chaos would rule and reign overall.” I would say this is a sweeping statement that is debatable but it seems you are contradicting yourself and putting a lot of faith in people with this statement.
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March 20, 2015 at 17:00
All the more reason repent of your sins and turn to Christ Jesus, because He does transform the sinner into a saint and the more genuinely saved people there are the less violence and evil there is. This is the result of a community repenting of their sin and trusting Jesus Christ.
http://www.born-again-christian.info/scottish.hebrides.revival.duncan.campbell.htm
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March 20, 2015 at 16:40
Hi Wally, I wanted to keep God’s Mercy for praying for one another and not get into the topic you were interested in discussing. Please don’t take offense. God bless you.
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March 20, 2015 at 20:49
None taken Eliza. I have not had service all day so I dont know where the topic has even gone. You seem to be handling things quite well without me!
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March 20, 2015 at 23:07
I’m not even sure what it was I wanted to discuss actually. Your discussion is much better I am sure
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March 20, 2015 at 23:18
Thank you Wally, you are such a gem. It would be good to discuss that at another time, eternal security vs. sin. God bless you:)
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March 20, 2015 at 23:22
Ahhhhh…yes that one. Thanks for the reminder Eliza. Yes that is a good topic for the future. Complex one with many views. I know mine. I think this thread is approaching death to tell the truth. Its been good though. Just remember we sow seed and God insures the harvest so don’t let anyone discourage you.
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March 21, 2015 at 05:31
Eliza, Personally I am absolutely amazed at the extent of your commitment and the limited practical answers you have provided to support your belief. I have blogged with a lot of people but you are on another level of irrationality. You are equivalently if not more extremely indoctrinated into your religion as I believe the Muslim radicles and members of religious cults such as the Exclusive Brethren would be.
I find trouble comprehending why this happens to certain people and to some extent I find it a bit disturbing how the brain can be so manipulated to be oppressive and focused so ruthlessly on religion that it interrupts normal human logical thinking by not allowing acknowledgement, understanding or even the awareness of other concepts, views, opinions and facts therefore making you oblivious to the rest of the world. If I were you I would seriously think about this.
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March 21, 2015 at 12:11
SKL
You keep going on about facts, yet the most compelling argument you make is that Christians are mentally ill. Furthermore, you never respond directly to any comment or question that is asked of you. Try reading what is written and responding in kind, rather than just spouting some pre planned response that is not relevant to the comment you are addressing. So, I will ask yet again, for I think the third time.
Origins…explain them and provide proof. Where did existence come from. Don’t talk to me about evolution. Origins..the beginning. Where was it, when was it, and what caused it to happen?
Destinations. When you die, what next?
Directly address those two questions. Provide rationality and fact. Provide proof. Show me the original documents. Give me eyewitnesses. But address them or go play on another blog, as I am tired of being told that my friends and I are mentally ill. Odd, since I’m not the one chasing believers around…just sayin.
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March 24, 2015 at 12:17
Origin of life: Don’t know – Nobody knows.
Destinations. When you die, what next?: Answer: Don’t know. Nobody knows.
Now, as you believe in god, let’s see you answer the very same questions, Wally and I will insist you abide by the exact same criteria. Let us truly see your honesty and integrity.
Provide rationality and fact. Provide proof.
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March 23, 2015 at 20:45
So because I disagree with you and your kind, and stand up for what I believe, that is some form of mental illness? How about that is certainty and tenacity. As I have already been where you are at, I don’t need to revisit that empty and purposeless position again.
Truth is set apart from error, it is not compatible with error. The writers of the NT either were eye witnesses or they were trying to deceive people. To what end? Most of them were persecuted, hounded for their beliefs, and died horrific deaths without recanting their testimony. They saw what they saw, they experienced what they experienced and they have left a record for us so that we can see and experience what they did. To know the joy and love of being in fellowship with the Creator of all, God Almighty, to have eternal life and so escape the sure and just condemnation of eternal damnation, through repenting of our sin and believing in His Son Jesus Christ.
It is that simple. You, on the other hand, try to complicate this and then slander anyone who has the temerity to say that you are wrong. Pluralism doesn’t mean that I have to say that falsehood is equal to truth. Since truth is incompatible with error any who follow false gods or false religions are under God’s just wrath. He commands that all repent of their sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ.
Those who are truly born again through faith in Jesus Christ have a new nature so they don’t want to sin, but they want to do what is good and beneficial for others. Even those who are not biblically sound do that because of the Christian faith. Christ’s love has spilled out over humanity so that the standard of doing good to others is to help those who have needs. This ethic is completely different from what was practiced en mass during the time of Christ. His influence for good is a blessing upon people, and those people’s who have not been visited with the truth of Christ miss out on this blessing.
Religion has entered into the Christian faith, just like it did in the Jewish nation, corrupting biblical faith. This has led to the denunciation of Christianity by many. However, God still has His faithful remnant who follow Him, believe in His Son, rely on the Holy Spirit, and depend upon His Word, the Bible. Other members of His faithful remnant will sound much as I do, even though we have never communicated together. No, looking at historical and recent events, it is those who hold unapologetically to the truth of the Scriptures, and know and rely upon God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, who are the ones who are threatened by those who reject the truth. Not the other way around.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2 Peter 2:1-2
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March 24, 2015 at 12:59
Eliza don’t you know we are all crazy?
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March 24, 2015 at 17:44
And those who believe that life, order, complexity, and purpose accidentally came from nothing, brutal murderous dictators are doing us a favor when they kill us and so are in heaven, perversion is preferred, little green men seeded this earth with life, and lies somehow are converted to truth if you say them long enough and loud enough are sane. God bless us!
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March 26, 2015 at 12:25
Eliza, I can tell the difference between people who are cynical believers, Sunday Church worshipers, activist types or fanatical believers. I believe fanatical people are entrapped within a sort of indoctrinated hypnosis rather than a mental sickness. The unfortunate radicalised young Australian man that recently blew himself up in the name of Islam was obviously in a state of extreme indoctrination parallel to your own state of mind where you put your belief before logic, truth and everything else, but of course the difference is he was manipulated by sadistic maniacs. Because this young man was in this state being unable to think logically or rationally anymore he was therefore murdered by the ISIS criminals. It is easy for people to say why did he go there and do this?
It is no secret that countries have invested and experimented in mind control and brain washing techniques and it is not something created from fiction, it was in common practice during the cold war. Extreme methods are often practiced within politics, cults and religions.
Think about this for a minute. How far would you go for your Christianity? Would you take a life and commit suicide in the name of God especially if your church members supported this act and you believed this is what God wants and he says so in the bible? If you think this young man had any choice in this matter you would be seriously mistaken. Free will is not something we have full control of. Free will is influenced by many other factors past and present in our lives and we are always convinced our beliefs are unquestionably correct. The details regarding this complicated subject can be found on many web sites, however if you do not believe in scientific results as I suspect, sadly you will not be interested.
You say “I don’t need to revisit that empty and purposeless position again.” Life is only as good as you make it. I believe some individuals who need reassurance during disappointments and tragedies in life often turn to religion. This is the one area that I think religion is unique and I do not deny this support for the dependents, however this is mostly psychological and can be prevented.
The writers of the NT were just writers who claim to be eye witnesses. Why did so few eye witnesses record such unbelievable events? Why are there no supporting documents, especially from the Romans? Why is there no unquestionable archaeological and scientific support? Why would the writers deceive us you say? Politics played a large part even if it was a cruder version than today, and as today obtaining power and control of the population was obtained by any way possible. This is only one theory that I feel is plausible
You say “To know the joy and love of being in fellowship with the Creator of all, God Almighty, to have eternal life and so escape the sure and just condemnation of eternal damnation, through repenting of our sin and believing in His Son Jesus Christ”. You can basically tell yourself that this is real and you really can hear God talking to you and nothing else anybody says will change that.
Your blogs containing multiple passages from the bible with rejection of anything scientific and logical for anything that may conflict with your belief including the rejection of other religious faiths and your so called false prophets who do not hold to the truth of the Scriptures is very restrictive, selective and idealistic. How can you be so sure everybody else is wrong? I understand why you think you are right.
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March 26, 2015 at 15:31
No, you don’t really. I am a scientist, so of course, I don’t doubt true science, but the indoctrination by the world against belief in God given by evolution has nothing to do with science. This is not true science it is a pretext for supporting unbelief. Many scientists, who are not necessarily Christians, are rejecting Darwinian evolution because it fails to explain anything, and is refuted daily by true science where scientists follow the evidence to its conclusion based upon experimental validation. You have been led by this type of faulty reasoning for far too long. It makes you presume that all those who truly know the Truth and have been set free by Him, Jesus Christ, are somehow equivalent with those who have been religiously manipulated so that they will kill themselves and take others with them. God condemns murder.
Apparently you haven’t read those parts of my blog, which are many, where I eschew the religiosity that is embedded in the visible church. By God’s grace and mercy, I have been at variance with those who rely on religion rather than relying on Jesus Christ. Those who know God have always been reliant upon Him. If you get nothing else from the Scriptures hopefully you could come away with knowing that this is a repeated and obvious example found in the Bible.
As far as being delivered from anything, God has delivered me from sin, praise His name. Those evil and destructive practices I followed years ago have been replaced with the life of Christ being revealed in me through His indwelling Holy Spirit as I obey the Bible. So how is “And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you” and “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith” equivalent to murderous monsters who kill themselves with multitudes of others? You, unfortunately, have been brainwashed by a false portrayal of the truth that resonates with you because you are a sinner and therefore despise God. That is the natural state of each and everyone of us. I was just like you before Jesus Christ met me and transformed me from a reviling evil woman bent on sin, to one who loves the Lord and loves others, seeking to do what is good and right. This is why I apologized for saying those things to roughseas, I want to be a godly example for my Lord and Savior to please Him, and encourage other believers to do likewise. While it is true that not all those who have had “spiritual experiences” are being led by God, many are deceived by Satan, (this is why everything must be compared with the Scriptures) there are multitudes of those who genuinely know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior who experience His love, guidance and answer to prayers. You are up against a teeming throng of the saved.
I am going to assume something about you that may or may not be true, but if it is true it makes me wonder how you can bring such sullying charges against the elect of God. I assume that you believe in evolution, which is false, support abortion, murder of unborn children, support “mercy killing”, murder of the infirm and aged, homosexual marriage, which is perverse, the abolition of the death penalty, rejection of justice, and forceful redistribution of wealth, where the government forcefully takes what legitimately belongs to its possessor and gives it to one who did nothing to earn it. If this is the case with you, you are an unjust murdering liar who steals from others and delights in perversion. How can any who put their weight behind the bankrupt ravings of the rabidly radically liberal be taken seriously and/or be given a platform for slandering God and His children? If you do not subscribe to this wretched platform then I apologize for lumping you in with these ravening madmen. It isn’t so great to be lumped in with others when nothing is really known about you, now is it?
As always, this is written so that God in His mercy might open your eyes to your plight and bring you to salvation through repentant faith in Jesus Christ.
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March 29, 2015 at 14:36
Hey SKL you toss out a lot of generalities about a lot of things especially science theology and psychology. Perhaps you could recap for the uneducated among up precisely what your credentials in these disciplines are?
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March 26, 2015 at 19:24
Eliza,
I have to ask. What do you, as a scientist, think of the young earth/global flood hypothesis?
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March 26, 2015 at 23:40
God has recorded for us in the Bible that the cosmos and the earth were created in six literal days. As a believer in Jesus Christ and one who believes what He has told me in His Word the Bible, I know the the Scriptures represent the earth as much younger than what is proposed by atheistic evolutionary science. Since He is the Creator and was there, I believe what God has declared over what man has speculated. The bias that something came from nothing demands great eons of time to overcome the impossible odds of that happening. The evidence does not support an earth that is billions of years old and much of the so-called evidence in the geological column depends upon circular reasoning i e. the rocks are a certain age because the fossils found there are assigned to a certain time period, and the fossils are a certain age because they are found in particular strata, etc. Then too, radiometric techniques for gauging the age of fossils and rocks have been found to be highly inaccurate and are being questioned by many scientists.
God tells me in His Word about His judgment upon mankind through a world wide flood and I believe what He has recorded for us in the Holy Bible. The catastrophic deluge of the world wide flood on this earth explains the mechanics of stratification, fossilization and the topography that exists. As a believer I know the young earth and global flood are true because God reveals Creation and the Flood for us in the Bible, and the scientific facts support what God has declared. God bless us.
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March 27, 2015 at 01:14
Eliza,
The definition of day in modern English which is derived from modern science, is the time it takes for a planet to rotate around its axis.
At the beginning of the universe there were no planets.
Consequently, there where no Earth days.
And since ancient people had no idea about the motion of planets, stars, galaxies or modern science, the word, “day” as it is used in the Bible, cannot reasonably used to denote the Earth day of 24 hours.
And since the orbit of the Moon results in a slower Earth day, year after year, the “day” as you wish to use it, is meaningless.
Applying a meaningless term to Holy Scripture can therefore only lead to error.
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March 27, 2015 at 02:40
God called it day, He said what He said. This was a miraculous event. This is what He wrote in Genesis the first chapter.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
The word that is used for day in the book of Genesis is used throughout the rest of the OT to mean a 24 hour day. It comes from the Hebrew, Were you there when He created the heavens and the earth?
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March 27, 2015 at 02:57
Eliza,
The Earth day is not 24 hours. The Earth day chances every second due to the Moon, earth quakes, what have you.
And the Earth centered view of the universe was discarded into the ash heap of error centuries ago.
It has been known for millennia that “day” in the Bible, simply refers to a time period of undisclosed length.
It’s like 40 days and 40 nights. Or when Jesus says 77 or 7 x 7.
These are not literal time periods or amounts.
Like the atheist, the postmodern Christian imposes her own personal understanding of things upon cultures and languages from long, long ago and far, far away.
Consequently, it is impossible to comprehend what the God is saying in the Bible because you have already inserted your own meaning.
Say, do you think Jesus literally meant to pluck out your eye if it be an occasion of sin?
Or that if you died a sinner you would spend the rest of eternity on the burning trash heap just outside Jerusalem (Gehenna)?
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March 27, 2015 at 06:31
Who decided that millennia ago? No one is arguing hours, did you see that written in my replies? No. Regardless of seconds, minutes, or hours in a day, the sun rises on a new day each and every day. The sun sets at the end of the day, each and every day. That is how God differentiated each day of Creation, So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Genesis 1:23
The word for day in the Hebrew is yom and in Genesis 33:13 this word is clearly used for a day: But Jacob said to him, “My lord knows that the children are weak, and the flocks and herds which are nursing are with me. And if the men should drive them hard one day, all the flock will die.” You are doing what so many do with the Scriptures, placing a grid of man’s doctrine over the clear meaning to make it conform to your world view. That is tragic and harmful.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/the-grid/
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March 27, 2015 at 02:48
The ancient people knew that the sun came up in the morning the sun went down in the evening and the next day the sun came up again to start a new day. It is still the same today. There is no need for the scientific definition of a day. By the way, my husband brought up this point. Good for him!
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March 27, 2015 at 03:41
Eliza,
If you are going to talk science than your terms need to be scientific.
Therefore, “day” must have a scientific basis.
The Bible is not a science book so it is simple error to translate biblical ideas into particular scientific definitions.
Nevertheless, the Bible can guide us to a very beneficial worldview which can lead to scientific thinking.
Your thinking, however, with regard to cosmology is neither biblical nor scientific. That is because you are assigning your own meaning to both science and the Bible.
You can’t say the universe was created in six days because the Bible says so, while at the same time saying that the scientific definition of day is not needed.
That is an example of irrational thinking governed by bias which is exactly the way atheists think.
People cannot claim to be Christian if they think like atheists and treat the Bible like atheists do; that is to assign personal, biased, arbitrary meaning to it.
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March 27, 2015 at 06:41
What! So I believe what God has told me in the Scriptures and that is irrational? I already replied to your requirement that it be 24 hours. Each day is divided into daylight and night time. That is exactly what God said: God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5 I am not sure why you are having such a difficult time with this, it is so perfectly clear. The scientific definition is not necessary because the experiential definition clearly defines a day.
Creation was a miraculous event. It wasn’t a process that God initiated and then stood by observing. Even now He is intimately involved with His Creation because He is sovereign overall.
When we consider origins we are looking at the evidence, the evidence does not support evolution, atheistic or theistic, but it does support Creation. I believe what Scripture says, that God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days. God bless us.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:26
My dear Eliza, I can call you dear can’t I? After your comment to me 🙂
You are having a laugh that the world was created in six days according to your book of fairy tales. Have you read Hans Christian Andersen? You may enjoy those stories too. Or maybe Enid Blyton? Always happy to recommend good fiction for you.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:35
Hi Kate
Glad you are catching up on comments. Nonetheless I do have a question. You seem to have come here initially with some serious questions about what we believe in. Now, however, it seems to have degenerated into no more than mockery and derision.
Again, I ask you, was your earlier question regarding Abraham real or in jest?
I have been doing my best to interact with you in a reasonable and considered manner, but it seems to becoming difficult.
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April 4, 2015 at 21:02
Sorry wally, WP hasn’t let me post for a while …
I take exception to that. I have been derided and abused by your super duper Christian pals. Please take that into account when I have, at no point, derided your beliefs or been disrespectful to you and your blog followers.
However, I have been called smug, self-righteous and condescending, naive, and an old shriveled up woman.
Believe me, I could insult and call these people from arsehole to breakfast time if I so chose. Give me one good reason Wally, why I should accept this abuse? Oh, don’t tell me. Eliza and Sailerdale share your religion. So, it’s ok to slag off roughseasinthemed ?
Well, quite frankly, no it is not. Is that clear?
You all point fingers. Point them at your vitriolic selves.
Real. Who is Abraham in my life? Of what interest is he to me? Apart from making patriarchal decisions. You do understand patriarchy don’t you Wally? Or maybe you don’t.
I totally appreciate you doing your best to interact with me. That is extremely kind of you. Not to say patronising in the extreme.
Are your comments about atheists considered?
What have I said wrong? Exactly?
Let’s cut to the chase, you are a religious discriminatory sexist bigot.
I don’t mock your views. I do however think they are dangerous and damaging. And while I am not an Ark, I think his point of view is valid in that you don’t answer questions.
Just tell me why Christianity is superior to Islam. When you answer that, tell me why either is superior to atheism. Why are you a better person than I am?
How can you honestly say that without spouting religious tosh?
Answer questions without resorting to a book of fiction.
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April 4, 2015 at 21:28
I have NEVER said I am better than anyone. I have, in fact taken great pains to say I am not.
religious discriminatory sexist bigot.
Really? You have no clue how I conduct my personal life. My wife would disagree that I am sexist, and my little mixed race granddaughter would likely disagree that I am a bigot. Am I religious,, well I guess so but didn’t realize that was a crime.
Look, Kate, if you don’t like what you see written here, don’t read it. If you want to read it and want to state your disagreement, that is cool, but don’t expect me to say ok gee thanks for the input. But, if it does bother you, stop reading. When you and friends cruise in here on a search and destroy mission, you are actually doing what you accuse me of doing. Remember, I didnt reach out on your blog and preach. You came here.
Ark? He is on a mission to end Christianity, end of story.
Anyway, that’s that and all I have to say on this matter. Anything I say will offend you in some say, even if I agreed with you I am sure I would agree incorrectly.
Answer questions? Yes I do. I answer them based on the Bible. You may disagree, but they are answers. I am pretty sure only acceptable answer I could ever give is to say…ok gee never mind, I am wrong.
Not going to happen, so if you don,t want to hear it, move along. Hope you don’t, but that is your choice.
Peace
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April 4, 2015 at 18:42
Well, since you don’t seem able to know or understand the truth, of course, you are an expert in myths and fiction.
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April 4, 2015 at 20:04
Eliza what is your issue with trying to put me down?
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April 4, 2015 at 20:11
What is your issue with trying to put me down? You have stated that you don’t believe the truth, so therefore you believe in fables, myths and error. I am sorry for you that you are in that pitiable place. I hope that Christ will open your heart and mind to the truth and give you salvation.
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April 4, 2015 at 20:15
Er, no, I hap e t stated
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April 4, 2015 at 20:17
Fables, myths, and error.
At last we agree. Dear.
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April 4, 2015 at 20:33
Do you mean you agree with me that you believe in myths, fables and error, because you reject the inspired, infallible, inerrant, preserved Word of God the Bible? Praise God, I hope that Jesus Christ will truly make you one of His own. God bless you.
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April 4, 2015 at 20:35
I agree that your beliefs are based on myths, fables and error.
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April 4, 2015 at 22:11
Since I never said that you are exposing the delusion of your mind. That’s too bad, but I guess to be expected from one who thinks they can dismiss Almighty God with the wave of their hand, poor darlin’.
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April 4, 2015 at 22:17
Wally , please call off these comments. I am sick of this abuse right now. I mean it. This is serious abuse.
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April 4, 2015 at 22:27
Nobody is being abused here. I think somebody is strongly disagreeing with you and not pulling punches, but nobody is being abused.
Kate, get real. I have sat and let dissenting atheist hurl around the most horrible names in the book and not deleted of even moderated the comments.
A believer has the gall to disagree with you or question your authority and you scream abuse.
If you find the environment disagreeable, then don’t comment. Any blogger has that option.
For a person who is as strong as you, and I mean that; you are obviously a person of some strength of personality to scream abuse at the first sign of strident disagreement is not especially credible.
Although I am leaning towards closing comments on this thread as the conversation has not been related to the post for days and days.
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April 5, 2015 at 06:22
I think you lack a basic understanding English. Strident disagreement and verbal abuse are not the same.
Secondly, I did relate to the post in my question yesterday as I talked about what happens when/if one meets your god? I think that was the closing line in your original post, was it not? Is that not remotely relevant?
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April 4, 2015 at 22:59
You can dish it out but you can’t take it, isn’t that the way the saying goes? If you don’t like push back for your erroneous statements then don’t make them. If you don’t want condescension then don’t be condescending. If you want to seriously seek to know the truth then ask the questions that show you are seeking. Otherwise you are just an internet troll bent on demeaning anyone who believes that there is a God who has created all things and that He has left His testimony about Himself in the Bible and through His Son Jesus Christ.
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April 5, 2015 at 08:39
So far Eliza, you have called me smug, self-righteous, condescending, naive, ‘dear’, ‘poor darlin’ ‘ and most recently delusional. Which presumably refers to the state of my mental health? Yes?
Are you aware of the concept of discussing ideas without hurling personal insults? You are truly the epitome of why no one should follow your religion.
You said I believed in myths, fables and error. Look in the mirror Eliza. What do you believe in? Myths, fables and error. A talking snake. A virgin impregnated by an ethereal spirit. An Ark in the Middle East that somehow acquired kangaroos and wallabies? Probably Emperor penguins too for all I know. And you accuse me of believing in myths, fables and errors?
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April 5, 2015 at 09:10
And you make it abundantly clear why God’s Word says the fool has said in their heart there is no God. Since you out of hand reject God as Creator and the One to whom we must give account, then of course you will ridicule the supernatural. It doesn’t make sense to you because you reject the evidence that God has given in Creation. Many who have scientific degrees do not find it difficult to believe what God has said in His Word the Bible. Many scientists find the claims of atheistic evolution to be without merit. And they give good reasons why. Maybe you should investigate what they are saying and why. Just because you come from the land of Darwin doesn’t mean that you haven’t been hoodwinked by a lie and dissuaded from believing the truth.
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March 27, 2015 at 00:51
“I know the the Scriptures represent the earth as much younger than what is proposed by atheistic evolutionary science. ”
Actually, I think it was 19th century geologists (many of whom were Christians) who concluded that the earth was much, much older than young earth creationists say that it is. It’s the geologists who say that the earth is very old, not the evolutionary biologists, and the geologists came to this conclusion long before Darwin introduced his ideas about evolution.
“Much of the so-called evidence in the geological column depends upon circular reasoning i e. the rocks are a certain age because the fossils found there are assigned to a certain time period, and the fossils are a certain age because they are found in particular strata, etc.”
I don’t think that this is quite how geology works, but thanks for your answer.
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March 27, 2015 at 02:33
That was what they believed until they saw the evidence of rapid stratification through deposition by volcanic explosions, Mt. St. Helens, which deposited 25 feet of finely layered sediment at its base in just six hours. I already mentioned the global flood depositing stratified layers. Experimentation and observation reveal that sedimentation and sedimentary rock can form very rapidly.
That this can occur rapidly is proven by a tree trunk fossilized through several layers of sedimentary rock in the upright position. If it had taken millions of years the wood would surely have rotted. Concerning the circular reasoning regarding the geologic column this is what Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History in New York had to say:
And this poses something of a problem: If we date the rocks by their fossils, how can we turn around and talk about the pattern of evolutionary change through time in the fossil record?
Fortunately, there is evidence to back up what I assert. Today, most geologists include catastrophism with uniformitarianism. The whole purpose of the theory of uniformitarianism is to give large amounts of time for evolution to occur.
In April 2014, 840 scientists signed the following:
“We are skeptical of the claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence of Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”
Many scientists are skeptical of Darwinian theory besides those who signed the above statement. Why?
Maybe because the scientific evidence does not support Darwinian evolution.
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March 27, 2015 at 14:50
“That was what they believed until they saw the evidence of rapid stratification through deposition by volcanic explosions, Mt. St. Helens, which deposited 25 feet of finely layered sediment at its base in just six hours. I already mentioned the global flood depositing stratified layers. Experimentation and observation reveal that sedimentation and sedimentary rock can form very rapidly.”
Well, first, Mt. St. Helens involved deposition of volcano ash over a relatively small area. It was a small-scale local event. It’s a poor model for the deposition of water-borne sediments composed of sand, silt and clay over tens of thousands of square miles. And it’s very poor model for the deposition of limestone.
Yes, sometime, some times of sedimentation can occur quickly. No one argues otherwise. The problem with the young earth creationism/global flood model is that EVERYTHING in the geological record has to be deposited or created quickly.
“That this can occur rapidly is proven by a tree trunk fossilized through several layers of sedimentary rock in the upright position. If it had taken millions of years the wood would surely have rotted. “
Ah, yes. Polystrata fossils. Yes, sometimes, under local conditions, deposit of sediments can be rapid. In addition, if the dead trees are submerged in water, it can take a very long time for these trees to rot. So, this isn’t really a problem.
“Concerning the circular reasoning regarding the geologic column this is what Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History in New York had to say: And this poses something of a problem: If we date the rocks by their fossils, how can we turn around and talk about the pattern of evolutionary change through time in the fossil record?”
Typical quote mine. In the same paragraph, Eldredge goes on to say that sedimentary layers are sandwiched between igneous layers, and igneous layers can be dated. In fact, there are many ways to date rocks that do not involve using fossils.
“Fortunately, there is evidence to back up what I assert. Today, most geologists include catastrophism with uniformitarianism. “
Of course there are catastrophic events in the history of the planet. Problem is that none of these events could have generated the entire geologic record that we can observe today. Again, the problem with the flood model is that it has to explain how a single catastrophic event create almost everything in the geologic record, and this it can’t do.
“The whole purpose of the theory of uniformitarianism is to give large amounts of time for evolution to occur.”
This not accurate. As I’ve previously stated, the development of old earth geology pre-dates Darwin’s writings. First, we have the uniformitarian geologists, then we have the evolutionary biologists. So, uniformitarianism is not developed to “give large amounts of time for evolution.” This is simply, historically inaccurate.
“In April 2014, 840 scientists signed the following:”
I’m familiar with these lists. Often, many who sign are not scientists, and those who are tend to come from fields other than geology, paleontology and biology. And most of these signers will tell you that the earth is very old and that there was not global flood.
However, if numbers matter to you, tens of thousands of geologists will tell you that you are wrong with respect to global floods. So, apply the rule that you introduced below…maybe this is because the scientific evidence does not support young earth/global flood.
“Many scientists are skeptical of Darwinian theory besides those who signed the above statement. Why? Maybe because the scientific evidence does not support Darwinian evolution.”
Now, if you could apply the same level of scientific skepticism to the question of the young earth/global flood hypothesis, then we could get somewhere.
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March 28, 2015 at 09:57
Lyell is credited with popularizing uniformitarianism, and he believed the earth way over 300 million years old, so he was a help to Darwin. More than just volcanic ash was deposited by Mt. Saint Helens eruption.
Other bad ideas besides Darwinian evolution and uniformitarianism came out of the time period.
Rather than write a long and drawn out response, I just wrote a post on my blog.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2015/03/28/how-old/
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March 28, 2015 at 12:01
Lyell is credited with popularizing uniformitarianism, and he believed the earth way over 300 million years old, so he was a help to Darwin. ”
Yes, and Lyell’s work PRE-DATED Darwin’s. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say “The whole purpose of the theory of uniformitarianism is to give large amounts of time for evolution to occur.”
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March 28, 2015 at 19:28
But evolutionary thought was already extant before Darwin published his lie. He was just trying to support it.
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March 28, 2015 at 21:07
“But evolutionary thought was already extant before Darwin published his lie. He was just trying to support it.”
Yes, the idea was around, but not widely supported or well-developed. I think you need to provide some evidence that Lyell Principles of Geology was written specifically in an attempt to “support evolution.” I think that you’ll find that there’s little reason to think that Lyell developed his ideas specifically to support the rather fuzzy ideas about evolution that were floating around in the 1820s and 1830s. He didn’t develop his ideas about uniformitarianism for the purposes of supporting evolution.
Lyell just thought the earth was old. Period. He thought that geological change occurred slowly, and so the earth must be very old. His observations of the geological record led him to the conclusion that the earth is old. This had little or nothing to do with evolution. In addition, by the 1830s, there were plenty of other Christian who were clearly not supportive of evolution, but who also concluded that the earth is old. (e.g. William Buckland, Adam Sedgwick). So, what was their motive?
The issue of the age of the earth has been settled by geologists, not evolutionary biologists. Forget about evolution and evolutionary biologists. Your problem is geology and geologists. Even if evolution never happened, the earth is still old.
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March 28, 2015 at 23:59
If by old you mean millions of years then you are wrong. Remember you lumped young earth, global flood together so you are disputing with God about His record given to us in the Scriptures.
21 “Present your case,” says the Lord. “Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob. 22 “Let the bring forth and show us what will happen; Let the show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. 23 Show the things that are to come hereafter, That we may know that you are gods; Yes, do good or do evil, That we may be dismayed and see it together. 24 Indeed you are nothing, And your work is nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination. Isaiah 41:21-24
9 Let all the nations be gathered together, And let the people be assembled. Who among them can declare this, And show us the former things? Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified; Or let them hear ad say “It is truth.” Isaiah 43:9
Lyell popularized what James Hutton, the father of modern geology, believed to be the processes that shaped the earth. Neither of these men were Christians. Lyell was a close friend of Darwin and he contributed considerably to Darwin’s thinking about evolutionary processes. So to try to separate the idea that the earth is millions or billions of years old from the evolutionary process is disingenuous. Hutton came up with the concept of deep time, also known as geologic time, which paved the way for Lyell to come up with his idea that the earth was 300 million years old, and ultimately the present declaration that the earth is 4.54 billion years old. At the time of his theory, Hutton was disputing with those who held to catastrophism, and/or the global flood. Finally, uniformitarianism completely replaced catastrophism as the accepted theory for geologic formation and features. Sedgwick another geologist who influenced others, belonged to the Church of England, and could be considered as conservative, but nevertheless did not have a testimony of one who believed the Scriptures and knew Jesus Christ as His Lord and Savior. Buckland, while a theologian, didn’t have a clear testimony of faith in Jesus Christ. Buckland did attend church and write on religious matters but that didn’t make him a born again believer in Christ Jesus.
The fact that evolutionary thought was extant at the time of Darwin within the scientific community of which he was a part is proven by the fact that Lamarck, not a Christian, came up with the first organized theory for evolution. One of the men he influenced, Grant, later worked with Darwin in the field. Obviously, Darwin was also influenced by his grandfather Erasmus Darwin who believed in and wrote about evolution. To say that evolution was merely a blip on the radar screen is again disingenuous.
I have read the testimonies of scientists who believed in Jesus Christ, and those testimonies are far different than what I found about these two men. So the men whom you have referenced did not believe the Bible nor did they know the Lord Jesus Christ. The church goers, Sedgwick and Buckland, were guilty of what many who attend church today are guilty of, that is letting the doctrines of man supersede the clear declarations of God in His Word the Bible.
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March 29, 2015 at 00:46
“Remember you lumped young earth, global flood together so you are disputing with God about His record given to us in the Scriptures.”
Yes, that would be me and 99.99% of all geologists, including a very large number of Christian geologists. But I suppose, in your eyes, these geologists aren’t really Christians.
“So to try to separate the idea that the earth is millions or billions of years old from the evolutionary process is disingenuous.”
It’s not “disingenuous.” Yes, evolution requires millions of years. But old earth geology does NOT require evolution. That’s the point. You’ve tried to argue that old earth geology was created to support evolution, but old earth geology stands whether species evolved or not.
I repeat, the idea that the earth is millions of years old was not developed with the goal of supporting evolution. Your position to the contrary is inaccurate. Lyell, Hutton, Buckland and Sedgwick did not come to the conclusion that the earth is old because they thought that species are not immutable. The overwhelming disproof of the young earth/global flood does not require or depend on evolution being true. The geologists concluded that the earth is old, and this holds even if evolution never happened.
“Hutton came up with the concept of deep time…Lyell to come up with his idea that the earth was 300 million years old…”,
Right, and neither Hutton nor Lyell came to the these conclusions with the goal of supporting evolution.
“Sedgwick…Buckland…”
Ah, so now you’re the judge of who is a True Christian? A tad arrogant, don’t you think?
None of this contradicts the point that these two men came to the conclusion that the earth is very old even though neither wished to promote the idea of evolution. So what was their motive in developing the idea that the earth is old? Old earth geology was not created to support evolution. This is my point.
“The fact that evolutionary thought was extant at the time of Darwin within the scientific community of which he was a part is proven by the fact that Lamarck, not a Christian, came up with the first organized theory for evolution.”
Yes, I’ve been aware of this fact for decades, and I did not dispute this point. My point was that you are incorrect in stating that old earth geology was created to provide support evolution. Geologists rejected the young earth hypothesis because it was overwhelmingly contradicted by the evidence. This is independent of any evolutionary theory.
“To say that evolution was merely a blip on the radar screen is again disingenuous.”
Evolution in the early 1800s was a fringe idea and far, far from widely accepted.
“The church goers, Sedgwick and Buckland, were guilty of what many who attend church today are guilty of, that is letting the doctrines of man supersede the clear declarations of God in His Word the Bible.”
I see that your position has nothing to do with a scientific assessment of the age of the earth.
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March 29, 2015 at 03:31
I answered you in my post How Old? You can read that if you care, in it I gave evidences that undermine the old earth concept. As far as whether or not I will doubt the Scripture because of the dogmatic interpretation of evidence, if you recall, I stated that I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I hold to what He has recorded and preserved for His children in the Bible. The Bible informs what I believe, not geology which is a science based upon interpretation of evidence. Interpretation has been proven to be wrong before. God’s Word is true.
As with evolution, much of what was proposed in the 19th century was based upon limited knowledge. Isn’t it interesting that with increased knowledge so too is the recognition that catastrophism does indeed play a large part in topography. That goes without saying, just visit Northern California around Mt. Lassen.
Uniformitarianism has been used to support evolution, that is a fact. Lyell rejected what the Scriptures had to say about the flood and proposed an old earth, that is a fact. Lyell did support Darwin in his work, by his own research that is a fact. Herschel loved uniformitarianism because it gave a natural law for explaining preservation of the species, rather than the miraculous. That is a fact. Herschel influenced Darwin, again fact. Whatever the religious affiliation of the geologists from the 19th century they rejected the worldwide flood as the explanation of geology, that is a fact. You also reject that, again factual.
How could they or you be so sure that the earth is old, because you and they were not present during those geologic events. What is proposed as science could just be vain speculation based upon observation. The greatest reason to doubt your conclusions is because of what God has said in His Word and He doesn’t lie nor does He make mistakes.
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March 29, 2015 at 05:23
‘God does not lie, nor does He make mistakes.’
Impenetrable statement. Let God be true, and every man a liar.
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March 29, 2015 at 11:12
Wow. I fall off of the planet for four days and miss the best conversation ever. In about three hours when I have read all of this I may or may not have something to add. In the meantime thanks to all for visiting and commenting. And a special thanks to my friends for taking care of business in my absence.
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March 29, 2015 at 13:20
“You can read that if you care, in it I gave evidences that undermine the old earth concept.”
That’s nice, but there’s a thousand times more evidence that undermines the young earth concept. There’s a reason why 99.99 % of PhD geologists reject the young earth hypothesis, including many, many Christian geologists. So, maybe you should start with why Christian geologists reject the young earth hypothesis.
“The Bible informs what I believe, not geology which is a science based upon interpretation of evidence.”
I understand this. As I said, I see that your position has nothing to do with a scientific assessment of the age of the earth.
“Interpretation has been proven to be wrong before. God’s Word is true.”
But God’s Word must be interpreted. And interpretation has been proven to be wrong before.
“As with evolution, much of what was proposed in the 19th century was based upon limited knowledge.”
Yes, we have far, far more knowledge today. And that knowledge has only very, very strongly supported the conclusion that the earth is not young and that there was no global flood.
“Isn’t it interesting that with increased knowledge so too is the recognition that catastrophism does indeed play a large part in topography. That goes without saying, just visit Northern California around Mt. Lassen.”
Yes, catastrophes happen. But as I said, none of these events could have generated the entire geologic record that we can observe today. Again, the problem with the flood model is that it has to explain how a single catastrophic event created almost everything in the geologic record, and this it can’t do.
“Uniformitarianism has been used to support evolution, that is a fact.”
I did not argue otherwise. I think you’re trying to move the goal posts. My point was that you were not speaking accurately when you said that the development of uniformitarianism was driven by a desire to support evolution.
“Lyell rejected what the Scriptures had to say about the flood and proposed an old earth, that is a fact.”
Yes, I did not argue otherwise, but why did he proposed an old earth? Was it to support evolution? No.
“Lyell did support Darwin in his work, by his own research that is a fact.”
Yes, Darwin used Lyell’s work to support to support his theory, again, I never argued otherwise, But Lyell didn’t invent uniformitarianism to support Darwin, and Lyell’s work stands independently of the question of whether or not evolution occurred.
“Herschel loved uniformitarianism because it gave a natural law for explaining preservation of the species, rather than the miraculous. That is a fact. Herschel influenced Darwin, again fact. ”
You keep saying “that is a fact.” But what’s the point of saying this? Are you trying to change the topic or move the goal posts? Your facts are not responding to my point that uniformitarianism was not invented or developed to support evolution or my point that the overwhelming evidence against a young earth and a global flood stands independently of the question of evolution. Forget evolution. Just deal with geology alone.
“Whatever the religious affiliation of the geologists from the 19th century they rejected the worldwide flood as the explanation of geology, that is a fact.”
Yes, but why? Were all of these men motivated by a desire to support evolution? No. Their conclusions are based on the geologic record and not on the possibility the species are mutable.
“You also reject that, again factual.”
Again, you seem to think it’s important to keep saying “fact,” but your facts are not relevant to the point I’ve been trying to make, nor do they address the problem of the overwhelming evidence against a young earth and a global flood.
“How could they or you be so sure that the earth is old, because you and they were not present during those geologic events?”
No one was. But if you ask a bunch of geologists, I’m sure that they’d be glad to explain how they arrived at their conclusions.
“What is proposed as science could just be vain speculation based upon observation.”
Could be. But I doubt it.
“The greatest reason to doubt your conclusions is because of what God has said in His Word and He doesn’t lie nor does He make mistakes.”
But maybe we make mistakes when we claim that a certain text is the Word of God and/or when we try to interpret a text, whether it’s from God or not. It’s find to say that God doesn’t make mistakes. But humans make mistakes.
Again, it’s very clear that your position has nothing to do with a scientific assessment of the age of the earth, so I’m not sure what more I can say about this with being redundant.
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March 29, 2015 at 14:01
What was the mechanism by which the 19th century geologists determined that the earth was old?
Do you believe in evolution?
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March 29, 2015 at 14:10
Think about the fact that 99.9% of the scientists rejected Pasteur’s germ theory and rejected Lister’s antiseptic methodology.
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March 29, 2015 at 14:12
This matters because an old earth is used to deny God’s special creation of the universe. So the hand of atheism has been strengthened by this “doctrine”.
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March 29, 2015 at 14:14
Old earth matters because evolutionists rely upon it as the sin qua non for their theory that is under attack within the scientific community.
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March 29, 2015 at 14:16
The revelation about global flood within the Scriptures is hard to misinterpret. What misinterpretation of the Scriptures were you referring to?
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March 29, 2015 at 14:17
The revelation that God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days is hard to misinterpret. What misinterpretation of the Scriptures were you referring to?
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March 29, 2015 at 14:18
The earth is scarred with recent catastrophes. How do the geologists know there wasn’t a worldwide flood, were they eyewitnesses? They are interpreting geologic features according to their biases.
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March 29, 2015 at 14:20
If the old earth doctrine isn’t meant to support evolution then why does it matter? Is it just that a so-called wrong interpretation of the geologic features isn’t according to a certain groups demands that this represents science?
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March 29, 2015 at 14:22
Why did the geologists come at this from the viewpoint that the past reveals the present rather than the present reveals the past?
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March 29, 2015 at 14:26
But the old earth dogma doesn’t explain these various serious anomalies, now does it? Theories are explanations and can be modified with further information. A theory must be able to be disproved or it isn’t a theory.
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March 29, 2015 at 17:06
“What was the mechanism by which the 19th century geologists determined that the earth was old?”
Lyell explains a lot of the reasoning in Principles of Geology. He got some things wrong, and we’ve learned lots and lots and lots since 1830, but much of what he said is still valid.
“Do you believe in evolution?”
Define “believe.”
“Think about the fact that 99.9% of the scientists rejected Pasteur’s germ theory and rejected Lister’s antiseptic methodology.”
True, but irrelevant.
Germ theory bubbles up in the 1850s and 1860s. It’s not widely accepted at first, but folks kept on doing experiments and making observations. Experimental and observational support grew and grew as the theory was tested, and by the 1880s, it is widely accepted. That is, within about 20 to 30 years, we go from 99 % opposed to 99% in favor of germ theory. All of the accumulated evidence since the 1880s has continued to support germ theory.
Old earth geology gets its start in the late 1700s. It, too, was not widely accepted at first, because the prevailing idea, based on the Bible, was that the earth was 6000 or so years old. However, with further experimentation and observation, the evidence supporting the old earth hypothesis grew and grew. Further, the evidence the contradicted the young earth/global flood hypothesis also grew and grew. Testing of the old earth theory has only made it stronger. So, today, over 200 years after the origin of the theory, the old earth theory is held by 99.9 % of all geologists.
See the difference?
“This matters because an old earth is used to deny God’s special creation of the universe. So the hand of atheism has been strengthened by this “doctrine”.”
Argumentum ad consequentiam
Who cares how it’s used? How it’s used is irrelevant to the question of accuracy. If it’s
an accurate description of the natural world, then it’s an accurate description.
“Old earth matters because evolutionists rely upon it as the sin qua non for their theory that is under attack within the scientific community.”
Again and again, it doesn’t matter how evolutionists use it. If it’s an accurate description of the natural world, then it’s an accurate description. Its accuracy does not depend on whether or not evolution is true. Take away any discussion of evolution, and the geological record still indicates that the earth is very old and that there was no global flood 4500 years ago. Stick to geology. You have enough to worry about just with geology.
“The revelation about global flood within the Scriptures is hard to misinterpret. What misinterpretation of the Scriptures were you referring to? The revelation that God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days is hard to misinterpret. What misinterpretation of the Scriptures were you referring to?”
I think that you are aware that Christians have interpreted the passages about creation and the global flood in more than one way. However, frankly, if you are correct in your interpretation of the Scriptures, then the Scriptures are almost certainly in error.
“The earth is scarred with recent catastrophes. How do the geologists know there wasn’t a worldwide flood, were they eyewitnesses? They are interpreting geologic features according to their biases.”
What do you mean by “recent catastrophes?” What was the scale of these “catastrophes?” Could the account for sedimentary layers that are miles and miles deep and cover tens of thousands of square miles?
I’d be glad to discuss the countless ways in which geologist know that there was no global flood 4500 years ago, but I think it would be futile. You think that God said that there was such a flood, and there’s no scientific evidence that’s going to change your mind. That much is clear. So, why bother?
“If the old earth doctrine isn’t meant to support evolution then why does it matter? Is it just that a so-called wrong interpretation of the geologic features isn’t according to a certain groups demands that this represents science?”
I’m not sure the I understand your question here.
“Why did the geologists come at this from the viewpoint that the past reveals the present rather than the present reveals the past?”
Again, I’m not sure that I understand your question. What do you mean by “the past reveals the present rather than the present reveals the past”?
“But the old earth dogma doesn’t explain these various serious anomalies, now does it? Theories are explanations and can be modified with further information. ”
I don’t know what anomalies you are referring to here? You mean that fact that sometimes geologic change happens quickly such as when an asteroid hits the earth? Yes, the old earth ideas of the 1800s have been modified in light of further information such as this. Modern geology is not Lyell’s geology.
Again, there’s nothing in old earth geology that says that nothing ever happens fast. However, not everything happens fast. In contrast, as I’ve said, the problem with the young earth hypothesis is the EVERYTHING must happen fast.
“A theory must be able to be disproved or it isn’t a theory.”
YES! So, what would you accept as disproof of the young earth/global flood theory?
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March 29, 2015 at 17:39
It’s not a theory it’s revelation. So they interpreted the geologic features to coincide with an old earth because they were biased against God’s revelation of a global flood. Semantics don’t count when declaring what you do or don’t believe. Bias is against a young earth because of atheistic evolution. So it matters what you believe about origins, since that will prejudice you against evidence contrary to what is brought forth to give evidence that what God has revealed.
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March 29, 2015 at 20:52
Eliza,
“Bias” against the young earth interpretation of the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with trying to synchronize science with the theory of Evolution.
We know for a fact that when the universe was created there were only three elements that came into being.
Those elements were hydrogen, helium and lithium, elements, one, two and three on the periodic table of elements.*
The other heavier elements like those necessary for life were formed in stars.
Here is a photo from the Hubble space telescope showing the Pillars of Creation, an area in the constellation Orion where stars are born:
Here is a photo from Hubble showing the explosion of a multibillion year old star:
Within all that exploded material are many of the heavier elements that are necessary for life. We know that because of a field science called spectroscopy.
Spectroscopy is the study of the light signatures inherent in all elements and compounds.
Our star the Sun or Sol, has a lifetime of about 4 billion years.
We know that because of the laws of nature (physics and chemistry).
Also proving the young earth interpretation of the Bible false is the law of nature referred to as “red shift,” discovered by Edwin Hubble in 1929 and the speed of light which is used by astronomers and cosmologists to measure the distances between stars and galaxies.**
From simple algebra comes the relationship between time, distance and velocity:
Rate x Time = Distance***
This is another way we prove, using the laws of nature, that the universe is billions of years old.
Quibbling over how many billions of years old is irrelevant because even 1 billion years is longer than six Earth days.
The denial of the laws of nature is also a denial of nature’s God who created those natural laws.
References:
* http://www.ptable.com/
** http://www.space.com/25732-redshift-blueshift.html
***
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March 31, 2015 at 07:32
So you think this all just magically came together to form the order, complexity and purpose that is extant throughout the universe by an explosion of nothing right? God created the universe to function and of course there is evidence of the materials found in the stars. Just how difficult do think it is for those
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March 31, 2015 at 10:59
Eliza,
Modern science has proven the existence of God.
It seems that the very laws of nature which disprove both YEC and its twin, atheism, actually were designed to prove the existence of nature’s God.
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March 31, 2015 at 11:22
Hey SoM I think to equate belief in a young earth with atheism and call them twins is a very poor choice of words. Belief in a young earth is no more a rejection of God than belief in an old earth
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March 31, 2015 at 13:43
Wally,
My choice of words is exact since both atheism and YEC are beliefs that reject science and reason.
That is because there is so much evidence and just down right, rock solid proof that the universe is billions of years old and that God exists.
Also, from the very first words of Genesis, the nature of God and man is reason and the nature of the universe is such that it can be known through reason.
YEC cripples the Christian doctrine of faith because it rejects the very reason that grounds faith to reality.
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March 31, 2015 at 13:59
I’m curious SOM, did Wally read your recent post where you called Protestantism (and evangelicals, like Wally and Colorstorm) an “Incoherent mess”?
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March 31, 2015 at 14:20
John,
I had a good discussion with Citizen Tom.
Other Christians are content to simply accept matters on the basis faith and doctrine.
Christian thinking, unlike atheist thinking, is robust in its diversity.
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March 31, 2015 at 14:27
That’s an interesting concept. You believe in an infallible god who wrote an infallible book, but accept none of it is accurate or believable and entirely up to interpretation which can and will be seen by other believers as nothing but an “incoherent mess”
Do you drink your Cognitive Dissonance cold or warm, SOM? 😉
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March 31, 2015 at 14:45
John,
The Christian, like Jacob, wrestles with God.
I am Catholic precisely because I have realized that I have no idea what God is talking about in the Bible.
But the Church knows and has been teaching the meaning Christ’s teachings since Jesus and his Apostles.
The Protestant thinks he is able to read the Word the of God (the Bible), apply his finite human mind to it, and interpret it correctly.
The solution to this deep divide is to keep wrestling until the end of time.
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March 31, 2015 at 14:06
The consequences of atheism are far more serious eternally. I agree that reason is vital. Sadly we do act like reason and belief are enemies.
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March 29, 2015 at 19:13
“So they interpreted the geologic features to coincide with an old earth because they were biased against God’s revelation of a global flood.”
Christian geologists are biased against God’s revelation of a global flood?
“It’s not a theory it’s revelation.”
And….that’s all folks!
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March 21, 2015 at 15:42
@Eliza
RFLMAO!
Brilliant. Absolutely frakking brilliant. You are truly something.
Is it possible to lower the intellectual bar any lower that this without actually sitting in the midden?
The bible was not written in English, therefore unless you the Words Sheol and Gehenna mean Hell then you are sitting with bum in the gutter.
But thank you for proving much mirth, Eliza. You are truly dong a sterling job of demonstrating just how clever Fundamentalists truly are.
It is like watching a soccer team score own goals, one after the other.
Any minute now you will be telling me the Exodus and the Flood were real and a donkey could talk.
You must be one of God’s ”special little people” right?
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March 21, 2015 at 15:55
Actually donkeys can’t talk ark. But the God of the universe can empower any one or anything to do as He wants. Even a donkey can be made to talk
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March 21, 2015 at 15:57
Super, now explain how you know more than the bible experts on hell, please.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:06
Actually why don’t you explain why you think you know more than He who wrote it.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:13
@Wally
Now, stop being a dipstick.
The book was written by men and we know this for a fact.
This has nothing to do with whether you consider they were inspired or not.
This is doctrine based upon false translation.
So, tell me what you basis is for refuting the expert biblical scholars concerning ”hell”.
Come on you’re a christian – or so you say – let’s see how much of one you really are.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:27
Ark you are somewhat proof that an a** can talk or at least type
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March 21, 2015 at 16:59
Lol … and you are evidence that no matter how hard I kick you are still the prick I am kicking against.
Now, please explain how you know more than christian scholars concerning Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna.
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March 21, 2015 at 17:13
Wow do you call your mother a prick Ark?
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March 21, 2015 at 17:15
Why would I do that?
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March 21, 2015 at 17:18
Well you talk to other Christians that way. Just wondered if you attempted to bully her out of her faith like you do here.
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March 21, 2015 at 17:27
I gave you my word that I would answer all your questions about my mum once yo strapped on a pair and explained how you are more knowledgeable than expert biblical scholars concerning the correct meaning of the words Sheol, Hades and Gehenna?
So … I am waiting for your erudite explanation,Wally?
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March 21, 2015 at 16:09
I think Ark is one of the atheists who knows more about Jesus than Jesus knew about Jesus.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:17
SoM I suspect you are correct
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March 21, 2015 at 15:54
Wally, I am trying to help this lady the best I know how by pointing out her loss of realism, I did not mean to offend anyone and I believe I was portraying the fact that she is highly radicalised. Think about this seriously. If she had been radicalised by the Islamic faith instead of the Christian faith it may have more serious consequences. If I can help to bring someone down from a radicalised state of any religion I feel it is the least I can do.
OK I will answer the questions where did existence come from even though I think I have hit on this subject before?
The beginning of the universe is still in the discovery mode as you well know. Your argument is so simple “God created everything and anything” so whatever number of original documents or eye witnesses I could produce to the contrary would mean absolutely nothing to you considering you reject just about every well documented and proven scientific discovery anyway. Apart from old scriptures do you have any documents and witnesses regarding this issue?
I am not as bold or blind as to say I know how it all happened. Science as usual will progress whether you accept it or not as our space travel and technology advances.
As I have stated before there is more evidence to suggest that if life was introduced to planet earth it was from a far more advanced life form than ours. Of course your answer to this would be that God created this other advanced life form so a rational argument would be impossible. It would be interesting however if this advanced life form also believed in the same God, but then why would they considering they started life on our planet?
More logically there is a god they worship who is above your God, a “Super God” more divine and perfect than your God, but I doubt you have considered that. After all, we are but a mere speck in a massive universe and it would be ignorant and stupid (not pointing my finger at anyone) to claim you know any better.
Destinations. When you die you die. We are just animals at the top of the food chain, however we are not privileged to have a second life as an angel. Looking after your health physically and mentally with a dose of good luck and good genetics are the deciding factors on how long that life will last. Of course nobody has returned to claim what actually happens apart from a few nutters who claim they met God.
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March 21, 2015 at 16:05
Ok aliens did it keep on going where did the aliens come from. You say believe in God is crazy but offer life from another planet and then say that has more proof. Wow ok lets see some proof of that that is better than the fact that a creation proves a creator
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March 21, 2015 at 21:02
Why is Ark arguing so much about this? Hell is real and should be avoided at all costs as our wonderful Lord and Savior Jesus Christ taught. Ark you will burn in hell because you were born a sinner and can do nothing at all about it. You sin by choice and nature. Your vitriol against God and His children who share the truth with you just confirms your sinful state. Here is the solution that our loving God and Father has given to you. Repent of your sin and believe in Jesus Christ His Son. Believe that He died on the cross for your sins and rose again from the dead for your justification. Christ did all of that for you because He loves you.
We spin our wheels warning you about the consequences of sin because we love you. Your demand that love negates the reality of hell for rebellious sinners is untenable.
Just because some spiritually dead and deceived “Christian” “scholars” say that the new modern versions prove that hell doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so. Their reliance upon modern versions based upon a corrupt lexicon written by men dead in their trespasses and sins, based upon inferior manuscripts replete with numerous errors and gross variations from the Received Text (which is the Majority Text, the most numerous manuscripts),which they chose because these manuscripts represented their false doctrines, doesn’t give said “scholars” any credibility to those who belong to Christ, nor the right to presume to teach biblical doctrine. Their choice of the modern versions makes them unfit to comment on any biblical doctrine because of the unreliability of the Greek and Hebrew lexicons on which modern versions are based, let alone they are sinners who hate God, just like you. The are sinners led into false doctrine by other sinners who loved their own lies, and hated the truth of God’s Word. These “scholars” just happen to have a religious veneer. This is part of the end time deceit that leads to the great apostasy, in which the church at large is enmeshed. Praise God that He has and is delivering His children from this apostasy and bringing us back to God’s Word, the Bible, the KJV.
Hey Ark, why don’t you read the KJV and ask Christ to reveal Himself to you instead of reading the work of heretics. That would be a much better use of your time. You could also be blessed beyond all imagining if God deigns to open your eyes to His truth, the glory of His Son and the wonder of salvation.
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March 30, 2015 at 19:40
Hi Eliza
You say hell is real, but in the whole scheme of things, I think we should all wish to go to hell because heaven is hotter. I’m afraid the math just doesn’t lie:
Heaven, according to Isaiah 30:26, is where “the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days.” Taken as read, Heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition 49 times more, meaning fifty times in all. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation [(H/E)4 = 50 where E is the absolute temperature of the earth 300°K (273+27)] gives the temperature of H (Heaven) as 525°C. Hell, according to Revelations 21:8 is where the “fearful and unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” Now here’s the fun part. A lake of molten brimstone (sulfur) means that its temperature must be at or below its boiling point, 444.6°C. Above that point and it’d be a vapor, not a lake. Heaven (525°C) is therefore hotter than Hell (<444.6°C).
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March 30, 2015 at 20:17
John that is absurd. You take data from a book you neither believe or understand to make a point that is absurd. You are talking like Ark now. If you want to argue this point more do it somewhere else.
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March 30, 2015 at 20:21
Math is math, Wally. I have only taken what is in your book and applied it.
Are you questioning the scripture i have quoted?
Are you questioning the math?
I assure you, both are perfectly accurate.
Now, how you deal with this revelation is up to you. All I can do is show you the truth.
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March 31, 2015 at 07:03
John it so important to know the difference between language that relates one thing to another for clarity of understanding and language that relates history.
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March 31, 2015 at 11:03
Hi Eliza
I’m sorry, but that comment didn’t seem to make any sense.
If you are questioning the accuracy of the scripture I have quoted, or the math, let me know.
Until then, let’s all hope we go to Hell, because according to your bible, its far more pleasant than Heaven.
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March 31, 2015 at 11:28
John that was obviously metaphor. Amazing that you accuse a person of not making sense. Pot
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March 31, 2015 at 11:43
Hi Wally
What was a metaphor? The scripture? Where does it say “metaphor?” It seems tremendously specific to be a metaphor, wouldn’t you say. The author is seemingly writing with some authority on the matter, because a true metaphor would read something, “a billion times hotter than the greatest heat even a demon could imagine.” You see, that would be non-specific. What we have in the bible are two passages that are very specific.
So again, how you deal with this revelation is up to you. All I can do is show you the truth.
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March 22, 2015 at 02:49
Wow Wally, I think you have put your head in a noose, because there is heaps of evidence to suggest there are other life forms or aliens in the universe. Just type in the relevant search words into Google. Much of it is from nutters and crazy people, however prominent people even astronauts and test pilots have accounted for many unexplained sightings of UFO’s.
I understand you are a closed door when it comes to this sort of thinking and would never investigate alternatives to God but you would have to be absolutely stupid to believe we are the only life that exists. A quote from http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2013/11/04/nasa-universe-likely-contains-many-earth-like-planets/ “When you consider that the total number of stars in our Milky Way galaxy alone is believed to number into the hundreds of billions, that means there could be literally billions of “other earths” in our galactic neighbourhood”.
I do not even need to believe people have seen alien space ships or even mention the Roswell incident because the scientific evidence speaks for itself and the logical conclusions are obvious. You cannot dispute sensible analysis indefinitely and try to work every situation into a creation by God.
Does your Christian band of believers have any thoughts on scientific discovery such as this? Are the doors closed on science and is it seen as the work of the devil? I understand Darwin was initially treated as such; however there is a softening to this attitude due to the Catholic Church reluctantly accepting his theories.
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March 28, 2015 at 13:36
Eliza, if you are a scientist you should find another job. I am not trying to be rude but no scientist with any credibility believes the planet is less than 10 thousand years old or that the earth was created in six literal days. There may be 100 or more so called scientists who claim to disprove this; however the age of the universe is undisputable. Even the simple definition of a day cannot be agreed on by all the worshipers of God. If God is as perfect as you say why are his words in the bible not perfectly expressed and uniformly understood by his faithful followers?
This is from a web page. http://hubblesite.org/reference_desk/faq/all.php.cat=cosmology “The best available information indicates that the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years. Hubble has helped to measure the age of the universe using two different methods. The first method involves measuring the speeds and distances of galaxies. Because all of the galaxies in the universe are generally moving apart, we infer that they must all have been much closer together sometime in the past. Knowing the current speeds and distances to galaxies, coupled with the rate at which the universe is accelerating, allows us to calculate how long it took for them to reach their current locations. The answer is about 14 billion years. The second method involves measuring the ages of the oldest star clusters. Globular star clusters orbiting our Milky Way are the oldest objects we have found and a detailed analysis of the stars they contain tells us that they formed about 13 billion years ago. The good agreement between these two very different methods is an encouraging sign that we are honing in on the universe’s true age”.
Evolution is real science and you cannot claim scientists are rejecting Darwinism because that is patently untrue. Science you should understand does not deal in absolute proof, only in the balance of the evidence and this can be questioned and improved at any time. This does not suggest that the theory of evolution is in any way uncertain because it has proven to be extremely strong and supported by over a hundred years of research, experiment and observation and in all that time not a single piece of evidence that seriously contradicts any part of it has ever turned up.
You have revealed your true colours just as I knew you would Eliza. It is clear you pray to God to guide your political doctrine as well as your life. I would expect you use the “Imprecatory Prayer “on a regular basis. Does God support your political views? If so you have revealed that both of you are bigoted individuals who want an idealistic world with no tolerance for people who disagree with you and this is commonly called a dictatorship.
BTW not all your assumptions about me are correct because I am a free thinker not persuaded by any religion or political party to believe or vote as they want me to; however I do have respect for all humans that do me no harm, these include homosexuals and people on welfare payments. You say you were transformed “from a reviling evil woman bent on sin, to one who loves the Lord and loves others, seeking to do what is good and right” I just have trouble believing this because you have just condemned certain people in society as perverse and you have obviously no time for anyone who disagrees with your politics.
I guess in your world view I am an “unjust murdering liar who steals from others and delights in perversion and a rabidly radically liberal” One thing that would concern me, if I was a worshiper of God would he send me to hell for being so politically wrong?
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March 29, 2015 at 14:39
The age of the earth is indisputable? Really so every scientists agrees on the age? All of them?
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March 31, 2015 at 08:09
Who said I believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old? It is ludicrous to think that I am the only scientist that knows Jesus and believes the Bible.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:45
I didn’t ask for your view I asked your opinion on whether Eliza’s interpretation of YEC doctrine was correct.
And you DO owe me an apology. Stop being a damn chicken.
You screwed up before and you screwed up this time. And you can’t delete the comments as they are someone else’s blog.
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March 29, 2015 at 21:47
No no I’m good you are in fact al liar and manipulator
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March 29, 2015 at 21:51
Point out exactly</em. what I wrote that was a lie. And also where I ''manipulated'' .
Truly , are you that much of a child, Wally?
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March 29, 2015 at 22:05
Hey ark…here’s a thought. If you don’t like being called out as a manipulative scheming liar, then don’t do it. You know as well as I do that you take words and twist them to suit your own agenda. You also ask questions in such a way to lead readers to believe that you are asking a person to prove a belief they don’t even have. That is called lying. Check out the definition. So, if you don’t like what I say…hey troll another blog. I will speak real slow. You are a liar. You are a manipulator. You are a bully. You only real asset is your ability to google very rapidly to back up your desperate and sad attempts to discredit God.
Now. put it to bed. Further comments in this topic are spam. Write your own post.
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March 29, 2015 at 22:15
You are frakking nuts! Eliza’s post suggested that she believed ONLY YEC’s who believed in a LITERAL understanding of the bible were going to heaven and the rest were down for Hell.
I asked you for clarification to make sure that I had not misread this and asked your view.
I am still asking.
That’s all. Where are there any lies in this?
You really are going round the bend.
If you don’t know your own damn religion don’t blame me buddy.
I didn’t write your damn book!
SOM has already called Eliza out on the issue of literalism.
Now, I am asking you, once again; as a fellow YEC, are Eliza’s views in line with YEC doctrine.
And is she saying that any other Christian is in error and are bound for Hell.
Yes or No?
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March 29, 2015 at 22:27
OK. I will be very clear.
I cannot tell you what another blogger believes. You will have to get that from them. Your efforts to get me to put words in another blogger’s mouth show that you are, in fact, a manipulator.
Yes. I lean towards young earth creationism. Do I rule out an older earth? Not necessarily. Do I believe the literal account in Genesis of creation? Absolutely. Is there room there for some divergence? Sure.
It’s simple. We are all sinners. The punishment for that sin is clear. The wages of sin is death. Easy.
Anyone. I repeat anyone who shows repentance toward God for their sin and Faith In the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross as the basis for their salvation is saved.
If a person’s beliefs concerning how the world came to be also cause them to not believe in the atoning work of Jesus, then they have a problem.
Is anyone who fails to believe the earth is young doomed? Well, no. That is my answer and that is what is taught in the Bible.
That is my view. Mine. Mine. Mine. Repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ equals salvation.
Want another person’s view? Ask them.
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March 29, 2015 at 22:32
I DID ask. I have not received a reply. She deleted my comment!
I asked you to clarify Eliza’s position based on the comment that s there now.
And you have still not clarified it are still having a tantrum.
What is the standard view of YEC?
Is the old age creationist who may or may not believe in evolution but believes that Jesus is God doomed to Hell, yes or no?
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March 29, 2015 at 22:42
The Bible teaches that the depraved sinner is saved wholly by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The requisites for this regeneration are repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Period, end of story. For reference read the following. Luke 13:3-5; John 3:16-18; Acts 20:21; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8, 9
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March 29, 2015 at 22:46
Dammit , Wally, I know this for goodness ‘ sake.
But Eliza’s post suggested that if one did not accept the bible verbatim they were not genuine Christians.
This is what I am asking clarification on.
So, if someone does not accept a literal understanding – that the entire bible is God’s (inspired) Word are they, in your opinion going to Hell?
And is this YEC Doctrine and is this what Eliza meant in her post?
No manipulation, no ”lies”, just a straightforward question about doctrine.
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March 29, 2015 at 23:06
OK..reeeeaalllllll slow here.
There is not a YEC Doctrine; there is only what The Bible teaches.
I cannot and will not speak for another person, under any circumstance. Quit trying to force me to do that.
No, a literal word for word interpretation of the Bible is not necessary for salvation. Only repentance toward God and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Conversely, a failure to hold such a view dooms no one.
The danger in playing loose and fast with Scripture is that the very doctrines which do ensure salvation also get diluted and misrepresented, which can place a person in jeopardy.
Now. when you evenutally get around to writing your post concerning this subject, which we all know you will, as your plan is painfully obvious to anyone, you make sure you represent correctly what I have said here.
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March 29, 2015 at 23:13
So therefore Eliza’s view is her view and her’s alone. ( even though others may agree, you don’t) Fine I get it. Thank you.
This was what I wanted to know.
Do you think Eliza is saying that if one does not accept a literal understanding of the bible one is not a real Christian?
I never lie. Contrary to what you keep asserting. I have no need to do so.
And I will always make sure any thing I post from you is verbatim and in context.
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March 30, 2015 at 13:36
See, Wally. Eliza is wrong – dead wrong.
How can there be more than one view of YEC?
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March 30, 2015 at 13:47
Ark I said precisely what silence said. What is your point here besides manipulation?
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March 30, 2015 at 13:54
That you are a YEC and so is Eliza. And she and the other commenter consider you are doomed to hell, even though you consider yourself saved. This is based on their belief that you cannot be truly saved – your repentence is doubtful – if you do accept the bible verbatim.
Got it?
I understand you consider Catholics are not proper Christians and I know you already believe 100% that I am doomed to hell, I just never realised there were those among your own YEC ranks who consider you too are doomed to hell.
I thought this was really quite weird.
How does it make you feel?
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March 30, 2015 at 14:00
I feel you are a liar and manipulator. Got it?
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March 30, 2015 at 14:06
I got it.
Which part am I lying about?
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March 30, 2015 at 14:12
It is puzzling Wally. To be on a life long campaign against people of faith, while believing there is no God, no Eden, no Adam, no sin!, no Babel, no flood, no Moses, no law, no Jonah and a whale, no Daniel in the den, no fiery furnace, no Esther and Haman, and of course, no Lord Jesus Christ, Paul was a madmen, and people of faith everywhere have given life and limb for a lie.
To borrow a quote:
P.s. -as far as the atheist or so called scholar having credibility with a bible in hand, they have disqualified themselves for promoting the word of God as myths. It’s not an insult, just a verifiable and incontrovertible fact.
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March 30, 2015 at 14:16
Puzzles me for sure ColorStorm
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March 31, 2015 at 14:31
CS got it right “people of faith everywhere have given life and limb for a lie.” There have been too many gods and far too many religions all with their personal versions.
Wikipedia says: “According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world. The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with “faith” or “belief system”, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect”.
Even if I craved to believe I was a product of creation and live to go to a heavenly life I would not know which one to choose. Obviously the best religion has to be one that does not get involved in war, violence and politics or discriminate against people. That just about rules out the whole dammed lot as far as I am concerned apart from maybe Buddhism that is as much a way of a peaceful life as a religion.
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March 31, 2015 at 14:48
Color storm did not say that. You totally took that from its context as to make your statement an untruth. Don’t do that again or your days here are numbered
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April 3, 2015 at 14:32
Hi Wally and pals
Like you (wally) I’ve been offline so luckily missed the later episode. But I did notice a comment from you about going back to the tenet of the original post and it made me wonder.
What if someone genuinely, utterly, totally can not bring themselves to believe in your version of creation, the world, and the bible as total truth. Add to that a few other issues that we’ve discussed before, eg equal rights for homosexuals, gay marriage and right to adopt.
Do you seriously expect someone to lie to themself, to believe in what you and others insist is ‘The Truth’ (with no proof at all) for the selfish motive of standing squeaky clean in front of your maker? Because, I would be Lyz g and self-centred by even thinking about doing that.
Or would your god not say, ‘ha, stuffed it up roughseas, I am here after all. Want to confess now or go to hell with all your atheist friends?’
Let me guess. You can’t possibly speak for your god. Except it seems that’s exactly what you all do.
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April 3, 2015 at 16:34
Hey Kate
Good to see you again. Actually I can answer that as scripture addresses it. So stay tuned later.
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April 4, 2015 at 00:37
Hey Kate
Not sure if you are still up or not, but I am home from work now and have my computer and time both!
I want to make sure I understand your question. I think you are asking that, if you die and find out you were wrong, would God give you as pass for saying sorry and send you on to heaven to be with Him? Is that the question? If it is, then the short answer is…No.
Now to expand, and I will try to do it with a minimum of theology speak. Of course, there has to be some, because the answer comes from The Bible.
Picture a lawmaker and a judge. A lawmaker makes a law, and if we violate that law, we end up in front of the judge. What do you think would happen if you broke a law and went before the judge and said..Hey judge I’,m really sorry, pleased don’t impose any penalty on me. We all know how that would go, the judge would do what the law requires, because sorry or not the penalty has to be paid. That is the law.
In our case, God is both law maker and judge. Sounds unfair, but He made the world, so He gets to say what is fair. Like a secular lawbreaker, we owe a penalty for our crimes, which we call sin.
The Good news is that God paid them for us, incarnate as a human in the form of Jesus Christ. Jesus died so we don’t have to. The catch is, we have to accept that payment. And we accept it by repentance, or agreeing with God and then faith in Jesus Christ.
The real catch is this has to happen before death. My only Bible quote for the day.
“It is appointed to man once to die, then the judgment.”
We don’t get a do over, what we do in this life determines what our next one consists of.
It’s not harsh at all. And the reason it’s not is that NOBODY is denied it. God’ excludes no one ever. It’s just that we have to do it on His terms, not ours.
Hope that helps.
Peace
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April 4, 2015 at 06:41
It wasn’t really the question. Although your response/interpretation fascinates me because it exemplifies the self-seeking selfishness that seems to pervade much of Christianity and other religions ie I need to look after myself so I’ll be all right on the night. Or day, whenever one gets hauled up to that cloud in the sky.
However, in answer … your god isn’t the law. It’s not a good parallel. Or, if you choose to use that one, there are competing laws. There is Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikkism, Wiccanism, Hinduism, how would I know which law was correct? Should I pretend to believe every religion under the sun just to cover myself? Should I believe every branch of Christianity in case I might be believing the wrong one? Should I set up my own? 🙂 Do you see how illogical it all sounds?
The law is incontrovertible. There is no dispute about whether or not it exists or applies to all citizens. There is no consensus about your religion, your particular branch of it, or any other religion. If I went to one church, ie the Catholic one, older than yours, I would be expected to believe that a wafer and a glass of red wine actually physically became the body and blood of Christ. If I went to an even older church, ie a Jewish synagogue, I would be expected to believe that Jesus was not your god. Only the original God was God. Similarly, if I went to a different temple, ie a mosque, Jesus would be one of many prophets, but not equal to Allah (PBUH).
So why should not only your religion, but your particular branch of it be the right one?
What I was asking was, would your God expect us to lie to ourself? Because I would be lying to myself, in front of your so-called, but to me mythical, god if I pretended to even consider any of that nonsense was real. I would have problems with my conscience if I thought my gay and lesbian friends shouldn’t get married. I love to hear about gay weddings because each and every one is a triumph won against discrimination and religious bigotry. Because in many countries now, it is legal to do so. Just as it is legal to have sex without being married, for women to choose abortion and for women to – supposedly – have equal rights without discrimination. That, Wally, is the law of a number of western countries, and as a law-abiding citizen I abide by those laws. I don’t ‘believe’ in them, because one doesn’t ‘believe’ in laws. One doesn’t worship a judge. The law and the judiciary are an administrative function. Whether one agrees with them or not is another matter.
Your religion is not the law and furthermore it has changed fundamentally over the years. As do laws. In the case of laws, the latest ones are the ones to follow. So unless your particular sect of christianity dates to April 2015 you could be out of date couldn’t you?
However, if one was to follow your religion, that would involve inciting people to rebel against those laws, because your religion considers those laws wrong. You would want to overturn gay marriage rights, thereby discriminating against homosexuals, overturn womens’ rights to abortion, thereby discriminating against a woman’s right to bodily autonomy, and you would presumably want to outlaw divorce, which would leave many religious people in a divorced pickle would it not? No doubt adultery and sex before marriage would be outlawed too. Nobody in their right minds would seriously sign up to such a pernicious system, and to believe in anything that espoused those restrictions on individual freedom over and above hard-won rights that are now law would be extremely dangerous.
So if your god would say, ‘well Roughseas, I’m sorry to say that you have used the brain I gave you to the best of your ability because you made the wrong choice, so it’s off to hell with you,’ I’ll just have to live with it for eternity won’t I? You, Eliza, Sailordale, Colorstorm, IB, Citizen Tom, (apols to anyone I’ve missed off the list) can all look sympathetically (I’m trying not to say smugly here) at me, and say, ‘we tried to tell you, but you wouldn’t listen’. And I’ll skip off to hell along with Ark and John Zande, and various other reasonable people, not to mention a whole load of religious zealots who also made the wrong choice, and I’ll burn forever, somewhere, wherever your overcrowded hell is. Because my idea of hell would be suffering smug, sanctimonious, pious people who are discriminatory and judgemental, for five minutes, let alone eternity. I should say that description is not a personal one aimed at anyone in particular but it reflects the collective beliefs put across by people who are, I understand, called fundamental evangelicals.
Very seriously, I will live with trying to be fair to all people here on earth in this short life that I have, rather than go round pointing fingers and trying to set myself up as better than others. Because that’s what your god wants me to do and in all conscience I can not do that. I find it totally unethical and it goes against my very soul.
Yes, I was definitely asleep. And as a final thought, that quote doesn’t apply to me. I’m not a man. Just another not very subtle reminder that your ethical code was written by a bunch of bossy men with an ulterior agenda. Time someone updated it. I was reading a professional book about editing last week that said using he to apply to men and women is now regarded as old-fashioned and gender discriminatory. Neatly sums up your bible I would say. Thanks for the reply, sleep tight 🙂
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April 4, 2015 at 15:20
Kate sorry that answer was not satisfactory. Thanks again for the visit.
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April 4, 2015 at 15:26
I didn’t say that. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I felt that you addressed one issue, which was valid from your point of view, but it didn’t address my questions about how I square my conscience given that I don’t and can’t believe in your god.
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April 4, 2015 at 15:31
Perhaps I don’t understand exactly what you are asking. What precisely is the question? I want to respond, but apparently am responding to the wrong question. I’m just not grasping what it is you are attempting to find out. Hence, my answers are not satisfactory. That’s not putting words in your mouth, it seems to be quite factual.
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April 4, 2015 at 15:43
Here is what I asked before:
It’s simple. Do you think I should lie to myself, to everyone I know, to actively discriminate against people who don’t agree with me, just to possibly save myself when I die, on the spurious chance that your god exists? To not go to hell and spend eternity sitting on a cloud?
If that’s not clear I’ll try and rephrase it.
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April 4, 2015 at 15:55
Absolutely, you should not. If you don’t believe, then it is not real.
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April 4, 2015 at 16:34
Sounds like damned if I lie, damned if I dont. It’s OK, I can live with that.
So, the answer to my question, is, I shouldn’t pretend to believe in something for the sake of saving my soul when I die. But why do you want to evangelise and try and convince people to believe in something they have no interest in? You have previously said you wish to do that. To convert people to christianity, and specifically to your version of it, yes? Surely that is contradictory? To ask people to believe in something they find false?
I also asked how I am meant to choose between every single religion on earth, and should I choose christianity, why I should choose one particular version? Please don’t say, the Lord spake thus. Just give me a simple answer in simple English. Can you do that? Without telling me that Jesus paid the price or that I am up in front of the beak.
If you want to sell your religion, sell it. But sell it well. Like Elmer Gantry.
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April 4, 2015 at 16:44
I don’s ask people to believe anything. I present information. What people do with it is their choice.
Why do i? Two reasons. One, God’s Word instructs me to. I am commanded to spread the Gospel to an unbelieving world. Two. I love you. Yes, that is correct. Look, I believe with all my heart that I am correct. If I believed what I say to be true, and didn’t tell people, that would be a huge failure on my part. So, when I tell you about Jesus, it’s not because I think I am all that. I suck just like anybody else. Worse than some even. I tell you about it because I know it to be true and I don’t want you left out. I desperately want to be in heaven with you forever. That is why I tell you.
Why the true God? Does that question matter if you think deity is false anyway? But as for me? Once I understood in my heart that there just be an entity directing this world, then believe it or not, careful examination. of evidence clearly shows me that the God of Abraham and His Son Jesus Christ are the appropriate subjects of my worship and service.
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April 4, 2015 at 17:27
2 minutes agoTruth in Palmyra
Wait a minute. You don’t ask people to do anything, but you want to spread gods word. That’s contradictory.
I don’t care two hoots whether you love me or not. I mean seriously, what value is that? are you going to give me money when I am short? I mean thousands 🙂 yes? Remember Eliza called me naive? You love me Wally? Fine I’ll take ten thousand. Sterling. Otherwise, how are you going to love me? Let me guess. With God. What a crock. Seriously.
And the last thing I want is to be stuck in eternity with you. Or any of your sisters and brethren. Lord save me from that, so to speak.
I also believe that my values and my morals are superior to yours. I do not discriminate against people based on gender or sexuality. You do. Therefore, I think your moral and ethical code is flawed, very, very, flawed. You make moral judgements based on fairy tales.
And yes the question does matter. Why is your fairy tale more credible than any other? You haven’t answered that. Just give me one good reason why your religion, and your particular totally important branch of that specific religion merits my belief. Just remember sweetheart, I’m the atheist who’s been married to the same person for thirty years. When you can match that, I’ll consider listening.
So, go back and answer the questions.
We’ve established that I don’t need to lie and pretend to believe in a god. But, I will presumably burn in hell for not lying because I don’t believe. Bit of a conundrum there.
Next, how do I choose which deity to believe in? Because I need a bit more than Wally says so. Mohamed in Syria believes in Allah PBUH. Who is right?
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April 4, 2015 at 17:56
Kate, I have never asked you to believe anything. In fact, I have never approached you with any opinion at all. You have come to me with questions, which I attempt to answer
Is it really fair to ask me questions and then when I answer to accuse me of trying to convince you?
No, sadly I can’t match being married 30 years. Not sure why that statement concerning my personal failures was relevant really. Proves that I am as bad as anybody, which I have never denied.
The other questions? Answered. I came to understand there was a God, and all the evidence on that led me to belief in the one True God and His Son Jesus Christ. That;s my answer. Period.
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April 4, 2015 at 22:01
So do remind me wally. Unless I am very much mistaken, your loving christian friends did accuse me of being smug, self-righteous and condescending. Plus a shriveled up old woman. Oh and dear and naive.
I think that is pretty abusive and you did not seriously call out ypur blog friends for that. On my blog I would not accept insults to other people like that. At all.
I have never called you racist so don’t pull the grand-daughter card. Seriously. Do NOT twist my words.
And similarly, please don’t tell me your wife doesn’t say you aren’t sexist. That is the oldest one in the book.
Let’s agree to disagree. I know stuff all about religion apart from a few years of studying it at university, and you know absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing at all about sexism, feminism, misogyny. Do not even go there. I will have your arse on that one. Big time.
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April 4, 2015 at 22:07
OK den!
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April 4, 2015 at 16:54
Based upon scholastic and scientific evidence, you worship something man made as there was no Abraham.
Roughseas is therefore, spot on.
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April 4, 2015 at 17:39
I didn’t mention Abraham. Who he? Is he sexy? But anyway I can live with being spot on. I get a good girl tingle (it’s a BDSM religious thing …) from that.
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April 4, 2015 at 17:57
Who is Abraham? Was that a jest question or a real one?
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April 4, 2015 at 18:02
Behave. My Basic instinct tells me you are just tying poor Wally up in knots with your metaphor and analogy.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:03
Snort. Evil God. Should I bow down 😀
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April 4, 2015 at 18:05
Yes, please!
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April 4, 2015 at 18:09
In. Your. Dreams 🙂
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April 4, 2015 at 18:16
Well, you offered. Don’t blame me! 😉
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April 4, 2015 at 17:53
Well Ark, as usual you have twisted things.
Science has never addressed Abraham. Sorry, but no experiment has ever been conducted to prove or disprove him. Oops to you.
Scholastic? Every bit of it? All of it? Every single scholar who has ever lived or lives now? I don’t think so. Once again you state something as fact simply because you decree it. All hail the great Ark!
Go away little boy.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:00
Lol… here we go. The mindless nonsense of the Christian apologist verses almost the entire archaeological field and most of Jewish scholarship as well.
Phew … difficult choice for the neutral, right?
One is supposed to accept scholarly consensus regarding the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth yet disregard the much more comprehensive scholastic and scientific view regarding the Torah?
Sorry ,Wally this really is no contest.
f this is the god that you are taking instruction from you might want to reconsider.
Do you in point of fact know the history of your god Yahweh?
Somehow I doubt it.
You best ask your friends, Eliza and Colorstorm for some help here, Wally as Roughseasinthemed is wiping the floor with you over this, and that’s no maybe.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:08
Ark
I am not here to have a contest with anybody. So, if Kate seems to be besting me, so be it. Doesn’t bother me in the least.
Kate, look are you here to talk and possibly get answers? Or are you here to mock and deride? If this is going to become a Ark and Roughseas beat up on the stupid fundie, then I’m not going to waste my time.
Again, was your question regarding Abraham real or in jest?
@ both of you.
Look, this post is not your forum to have side conversations mocking me and my beliefs. End that, please.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:36
Then stop trying to twist out of answering Roughseas questions using theological doublespeak.
Present evidence for your claims – well reasoned ones – or recognise you have no grounds to push this stuff and not expect push back.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:41
Butt out Ark. Adults are talking here. Petulant children should go to their rooms and remain there.
Kate, back to you. Where were we?
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April 4, 2015 at 18:44
”Butt out?”
You can’t stand the competition or is it you just can’t stand the competition?
What are you afraid of? Call Eliza.
What will you do if Roughseas asks the very same question?
Tell her to Butt out?
You talk to your mother like that?
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April 4, 2015 at 18:54
Nope, Not here to have a competition. Disappointing to you I am sure.
Hey, if it makes you feel good, you win. In the end God will look down on you and say…Hey Ark, no problem. Not my will but YOURS be done.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:59
Win? Win what?
I think you misunderstood the statement.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:46
Also, you liked my comment, so why are you now telling me to Butt out if you liked what I wrote?
Are you having an episode or something?
In fact just why do you like every comment?
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April 4, 2015 at 18:52
So, that’s where we are now? Sigh, I can’t even blog correctly, I guess I’ll just go eat worms.
Ark, as crazy as it is, I’ll answer your question. Seems some folks do like comments just as a signal that a comment has been read and a response might be in the works.
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April 4, 2015 at 18:57
Interesting. Well, now I know.
Oh, I didn’t say you blogged incorrectly.
I am not bothered by the likes. I rather prefer an honest answer to the comment – if you have one.
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April 4, 2015 at 17:03
Exactly how do you know you are commanded by your god?
ISIS say they are also commanded by god.
How does one differentiate?
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April 4, 2015 at 17:42
I am so waiting for the answer.
etc
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April 4, 2015 at 18:02
Gouda, wasn’t it? That’s what Neil said, at any rate?
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April 4, 2015 at 18:04
You are so cheesy it’s beyond belief. Well, isn’t everything? Try Boffard.
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April 5, 2015 at 09:03
I wrote this post in response to what SOM had to say about YEC and atheism. It somehow seems appropriate considering your continuing argument.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2015/04/05/how-old-part-two/
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April 5, 2015 at 12:05
Wally if you are asking why atheists or non-believers on your website are asking difficult questions when your belief and position is clear I will explain. Your belief is in many ways detrimental to our society. RoughSeas has already explained a raft of the things that I would not want my children to learn regarding discrimination and the fact that your ideology would put religion instruction in schools and prevent my children from learning about the scientific realities of the world is criminal. We have a duty not to a deity but to our future existence and that is to reduce the hold religion has on society and break the cycle.
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