We have been working our way through a study on the Deity of Jesus Christ. Simply put, this is one of the most basic and essential beliefs of orthodox Christian faith. Without belief in the Divine nature of Jesus, it can be seriously questioned if one is actually a Christian or, in fact, something else. We have discussed why it matters, a brief explanation of the Hypostatic Union, and some of the major attacks and assaults both historically and today on this essential doctrine.
As we move along in our study, I want to take a look at the whys, or the motivations, that may be driving those who doubt this doctrine to doubt in in the first place. Irritation warning here, and an intolerance advisory has been issued. Many will disagree with some of what I say here, but that’s really not my problem.
Let’s recap, quickly, just why this matters so greatly to the core of Christian belief:
When we pray for the forgiveness of our sins, who do most of us pray to? That is very likely Jesus Christ. If Jesus was not God, then we are praying empty, useless prayers, as only God can forgive sin.
We often pray to and worship Jesus. If He was not God, just who are we worshiping? After all, aren’t we to only worship God?
If we fail to recognize the deity of Jesus, them many other essential Christian doctrines fly right out of the door as well, such as the Trinity and the Resurrection. In fact, since the concept of the deity of Jesus seems quite clear in The Bible, a good part of that has to be tossed out the window as well.
Only God is eternal and infinite. If Jesus was not eternal and infinite, then how exactly did He pay for the potentially infinite sins of the entire human race past, present, and future?
There are many other things we could say about the essential nature the deity of Jesus, but we will leave it at the above for now and move along. The point is, that without a belief in the deity of Jesus Christ, one is not in any meaningful sense a Christian. Failure to believe in the deity of Jesus is failure to believe in the Jesus of the Bible. Belief in Jesus is essential to our salvation. Connect the dots.
So, who is it out there in the world denying the deity of Jesus? Well, there are many.
Obviously, atheists would deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Obviously, that is because atheists by definition deny the very existence of deity. There are, however, atheists who like to debate about whether or not The Bible even teaches the deity of Jesus. Why is that? Well, it goes right back to the essentiality of the doctrine. If the deity of Jesus falls by the wayside, so do other essential doctrines and The Bible itself. My purpose here is not really to address that issue, so I won’t.
Obviously, Muslims deny the deity of Jesus, although they do recognize Him as a great prophet of God. Again, I don’t plan on taking on that subject here either.
Who is my beef really with concerning the deity of Jesus? It is with “Christians” who would undermine this essential doctrine. Who are these? Well, there are the obvious candidates of “Christian” religions who are not really Christian at all. These groups deny this essential doctrine along with many others, rendering them not Christian at all but merely what they are: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Christadelphians, and others.
In addition, among “mainstream” Christian denominations, there are arising a group of quite vocal “progressive” Christians who are getting into the business of denying the deity of Jesus, along with other essentials such as the trinity, the resurrection, and the miracles of Jesus.
So, why the denial from these groups of the deity of Jesus Christ?
It doesn’t make sense intellectually to them. How Jesus could be 100 percent man and 100 percent God simply is beyond our ability to grasp. The incarnation of Jesus is criticized as paradoxical, enigmatic, and even self contradictory. Of course it seems that way to us! The idea of any being being 100 percent of two things, in this case human and divine, seems self contradictory. We need to remember here who we are dealing with; we are dealing with God. God is by nature not comprehensible by any one who is not, well, God. In one of the articles I posted on the previous post by Alister McGrath, he said the following:
“The idea of incarnation is easy to criticize: it is paradoxical, enigmatic, and so on. But everyone already knows this, including the most fervent advocates of the idea. And it is absurd, even offensive, to suggest that those who regard a belief in the incarnation as legitimate are intellectually hidebound or trapped in their traditions, unable to think for themselves. The question remains, as it always has been: is the incarnation a proper and legitimate interpretation of the history of Jesus of Nazareth?
The fact that something is paradoxical and even self-contradictory does not invalidate it. Those who have worked in the scientific field are only too aware of the sheer complexity and mysteriousness of reality. The events lying behind the rise of quantum theory, the difficulties of using models in scientific explanation – to name but two factors which I can remember particularly clearly from my own period as a natural scientist – point to the inevitability of paradox and contradiction in any except the most superficial engagement with reality.[42] Our apprehension of reality is partial and fragmentary, whether we are dealing with our knowledge of the natural world or of God. The Enlightenment world-view tended to suppose that reality could be totally apprehended in rational terms, an assumption which still persists in some theological circles, even where it has been abandoned as unrealistic elsewhere. All too many modern theologians cry ‘Contradiction!’, and expect us all to abandon there and then whatever it is that is supposed to be contradictory. But reality just isn’t like that.”
It’s fairly easy to determine why the non believing world rejects the idea of the incarnation of Jesus; why, then do those wearing the mantle of “Christianity” reject it? That’s not difficult to discern, either.
How are we saved? Any true reader of God’s Word knows the answer is that we are saved by Grace, through faith. There is not even one iota of work we apply towards securing our salvation. We do not have to work to get it; it is a gift from God. We do not have to work to keep it; we are secured by God. When Jesus said on the Cross, It is finished, it was in fact finished. Why could Jesus finish it? He was God. As eternal God, He had the actual power to forgive on that cross. As eternal God, He could pay the debt for all of humanity past, present, and future. As eternal God, He had the ability to conquer death, and return to life so what we could do the same some day ourselves.
What I just described above is Christianity. Anything else is not. The single greatest heresy and false teaching in the “Church” today is the doctrine of salvation by works. It is not just a heresy, but a damnable heresy. Trust in any other thing besides the completed atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross will NOT secure a person’s salvation. Let me be clear: if you are still working your way to heaven, you are working the wrong direction.
Why do I say the above? If Jesus was not God, then Jesus needs our help. His death may have set a great example, but did not pay the price in full. His death paid most of it, but we have a few things we have to toss in there to finish the job and to keep it finished. We have to continually re sacrifice Him over and over by rituals and sacraments, because the first time wasn’t enough.Once we have it, we have to do good to keep it, because the power of Jesus is insufficient.
People reject the divinity of Jesus, because they don’t want Him to be God; they want to be God. We want to be God. We want our set of rules, our set of standards, our legalism to be the means by which we make ourselves right with God. Please don’t misunderstand me here; I do believe God has expectations of developing holiness from His children. I am not advocating license as an alternative for legalism here. Nonetheless, becoming sanctified over time and striving for personal holiness never saves us or keeps us.
We reject the deity of Jesus because we want things our way. What’s new, right? Isn’t this what started the whole problem back in the Garden of Eden? God had made things very simple, and Adam and Eve persisted in making it complicated. It is true that there is nothing new under the sun.
Next Week: We are finally going to start teaching what God’s Word reveals to us about the deity of Jesus Christ.
March 28, 2016 at 09:09
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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March 28, 2016 at 09:12
Thank you Brother Vincent and good morning to you!
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March 28, 2016 at 09:39
You’re very welcome Brother Wally and a Blessed morning to you as well!
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March 28, 2016 at 13:59
Wally, so glad to read your words on this essential truth!
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March 28, 2016 at 14:10
thank you Maria for your support. It is such an essential truth and I really felt drawn to share it honestly
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March 28, 2016 at 19:13
A good post! The deity of Jesus Christ is essential to salvation as you pointed out and I think it was a good move on your part to specify the greater issues is not non-Christians who deny the divinity of Christ (we expect them to) but those who professes to be Christians and follow a Christian religion. I like the quote from McGrath by the way about paradoxes and difficulties. Good stuff, can’t wait for next week installment!
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March 28, 2016 at 19:34
Thanks Brother Jim. It is so, so essential and foundational to the Faith. As you pointed out, we expect the non believers to say that, but I am still shocked to see those who profess belief say it. How can they call themselves believers? What exactly is it they believe in? And I agree on the quote. I see things like that and I wish I could connect those dots like that.
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April 17, 2016 at 14:28
I’m curious: When you say you have a ‘relationship’ with Jesus/God just exactly what do you mean by this , Wally?
Could you explain it?
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April 17, 2016 at 15:05
Hey Ark, thanks for coming by. Hmm. Well actually I have one for you. Since I am pretty sure I have seen folks answer this question a number if times, perhaps if you explained your interest, I could better answer.
Because, this question has been addressed many, many times. Funny thing is, you have always responded with unrelated comments, insults and ridicule. So, I really don’t understand what you are asking
Oh, and I’m missing the relevance of the question to the post actually.
Just slow I suppose
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April 17, 2016 at 15:10
Your posts relates to Jesus being God. I often here Christians say they have a relationship with Jesus so how does this work?
Does he communicate with you/to you?
How does he relate to several billion people at the same time?
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April 17, 2016 at 15:14
Hmm..I suppose I was unclear. The post is about what the Bible teaches on this subject. And really, your questions are much too broad to be addressed effectively.
And….to repeat. All those have been answered multiple times for you and you aren’t satisfied. Perhaps you should stick with your own answers.
Now, if you are truly interested, I can provide some links to articles on my blog which will explain how you, too, can have that same relationship with Jesus. Otherwise, that’s not this post.
But, again thanks for asking.
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April 17, 2016 at 15:19
I can’t recall if I read them, but if they explain what this relationship is and how you communicate with Jesus and he with you, then sure, link away.
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April 17, 2016 at 15:25
Well, Ark, you have read many of them I know, because you have been free with your critiques of them. Start with my Jesus paid it all Series.
Now, when you read those have a Bible in hand, because I would never want you to thing I was teaching something not in the Bible
Or just start at page one of my blog and read your way through. All your question are addressed over time.
Thanks for your interest
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April 17, 2016 at 15:31
But the ”Paid it all” series is an explanation of being saved and why Jesus was crucified, not about relationship. And yes, I’m pretty sure I did read most of it.
What I’m after is an explanation of how his actually works, and as this current series is about firmly believing that Jesus is God then it seems appropriate to ask a Christian what exactly he ( you in this case) means by having a relationship.
This is a straight up and down question and I am interested in you interpretation.
How does it work and how do you ”relate” as it were to Jesus?
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April 17, 2016 at 15:40
Ark, perhaps I am stupid. But maybe you should explain how you made the linkage between the actual content of this post and your question.
Or maybe another wants to engage this, as history had taught me not to waste my time.
Last note. Um, you are actually confused, as the series does illustrate the points of why we Don’t have a relationship with God. We don’t because our sin has fractured it. Salvation is the restoration of the relationship. Question answered.
Nonetheless, for those who might be interested, here is a link for a summary of all 5 parts of that study.
https://truthinpalmyra.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/jesus-paid-it-all-parts-1-5-summarized-2/
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April 17, 2016 at 15:47
You misunderstand. I’m sorry, that’s my fault for not explaining.
And altouygh t seems off topic as I mentioned, once acceptance of Jesus as God a relationship begins, thus am asking how it works.
I want an explanation on what is involved when it comes to having a relationship with Jesus.
Yes, I understand the notion of faith and confession but once you consider yourself redeemed how does the relationship work from this point.
How does communication between Jesus and billions of worshipers take place?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:07
Hmm…odd. Relationship is addressed fully on those posts. One has to read them.
Sorry, apparently I am no help.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:08
I couldn’t find it. Does it address the term in the manner I have expressed here – as in communication of any description?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:12
Nope, it addressed it in God terms, not Ark terms
So, that appears to be our breakdown. You are the keeper of definitions, not God.
So, let’s move on, this conversation is called foul for irrelevance
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April 17, 2016 at 16:18
This is what always disappoints me about communication with you.
You are perfectly happy chatting with religious folk where its all faith and doctrine and hunky dory, but you are never prepared to offer an honest open straightforward explanation whenever I have asked a question.
It’s as though you simply repeat apologetics 101 and when asked to respond in a way that I would understand you ”call foul” and sulk.
If you can’t explain then perhaps you simply don’t understand it well enough yourself
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April 17, 2016 at 16:21
Ark….check it out. My answers come from God’s word. You find that not suitable. And now you start with the insults.
I’m heading to the cave for indoctrination now and will be out for several hours. Act like a fool and it’s back to the nursery for you ok?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:22
And how exactly does this explain your relationship with Jesus, Wally?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:23
Ark, you will never understand this relationship unless you repent and trust Christ to save you:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:27
I am not expecting to partake of this relationship. I would not be so presumptuous.
I am asking how it works for a believer such as yourself.
Can you explain how you communicate with Jesus and how he communicates in turn?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:33
Ark, already explained this – please see my comment on prayer and reading the Bible. That will have to do, it is after all faith, faith that you don’t have or want and therefore can’t understand.
Thanks for the conversation. A thought – ask these things of God as you read the Bible.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:40
I read your previous comment Maria. But you mentioned Jesus communicated with you through his word – the bible. I was under the impression he communicated with you in a more physical sense. As this is not the case then this is not actually a relationship in the conventional sense.
It is no different from me saying I have a relationship with a man I call my father whom I have never met yet he left a letter saying he loved me.
It goes no further than this.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:44
Ark, I’ve seen Him doing things on my behalf, protecting me, counseling me, providing for me – being as He promised “a father to the fatherless.” Yes, that’s me – so it’s odd you’ve chosen to mention such things.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:49
And how exactly do you know it was Jesus, Maria?
In what way did he communicate with you?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:58
Through His Word as I said.
I used to be hyper-charismatic and think every little thought in my confused or deceived heart was from the Lord. Now I rely on His Word, and I’m here to tell you, whether you believe it or not, that this relationship is true, these things can be known – that He witnesses with our spirit that we belong to Him and confirms His word to us. This inner witness and His Word are enough – and clean, the Bible says. He can’t lie like us, Ark. Are you lying in any of this? This isn’t simple curiosity on your part. I have to go feed Greta my dog – true.
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April 17, 2016 at 17:07
Lying? I have already mentioned it is a term I have heard bandied about on many an occasion but never really bothered to pursue it.
After listening to a video by Robert Price earlier this afternoon who raised a similar question I decided to ask also.
I was over at Colorstorm’s blog and would have asked him but I think he would never have answered. I saw Wally’s Gravitar photo and clicked it.
I have no need to lie, thank you very much.
So in fact when you say relationship you are referring to what you call the Holy Spirit, and not actually Jesus, yes?
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April 17, 2016 at 17:45
Ark, I meant are you being honest about your interest in this?
Sorry that my answers fall short. Best I can do. God is completely truthful and trustworthy, and has made Himself known:
Hebrews 1Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
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April 18, 2016 at 05:23
Of course I am being honest. I really do want to know what christians mean by ”relationship” and based on yours and Wally’s input I have a slightly better grasp of the term. I appreciate the effort.
At least I now know it has nothing to do with actual communication but rather an acceptance of biblical doctrine.
By the way, out of interest, do you know the actual history of Yahweh?
Have you ever investigated the Ugaritic texts, for example?
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April 18, 2016 at 05:34
Hello Ark
Point of interest. Your closing statements have nothing to do with this post. You have something you want to say on that? Go write a post.
However, not relevant to this one.
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April 18, 2016 at 05:39
I would counter that anything to do with God has relevance.
We are all, in our own way, seekers of truth.
I would also add: why are you apparently so afraid that you insist on keeping your posts so narrowly focused and disallow any free thought outside the coloring lines?
If you are scared or intimidated your belief cannot withstand even the most casual of scrutiny why bother even writing about it on an open forum?
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April 17, 2016 at 20:03
Maria, thank you for your efforts to reach out here, they are much appreciated. Well done and it is nice to have friends who will step into the gap when needed
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April 17, 2016 at 20:07
you’re welcome, brother. God bless you!
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April 17, 2016 at 16:12
Unless Maria wants to engage, than I am cool with that
🙂
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April 17, 2016 at 16:10
Ark, basically we pray, read His Word to know His will and mind, and assemble to worship Him and be with one another.
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April 17, 2016 at 15:57
Ark, as Wally said in different words, it is a relationship with God Who has been reconciled to us criminal or self-righteous dolts by the appeasement of His holy anger and justice. He made a way to be just and yet to justify us through Jesus Christ. All of this is recorded in His Word, the Bible – we find it there, we pray, repent, rest in Him. Stop arguing, pray, repent.
In His love,
Maria
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April 17, 2016 at 16:06
@Maria
So Christians don’t actually have a proper rrelationship with Jesus ,( communication etc) as I would with a friend, but this is simply a term to denote/identify that you have acknowledged he is God? Is this correct?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:10
Andddddddddd it starts. Ark. Relationship has been defined. And here you state it is not a proper relationship. Um…check it out. You don’t define relationship with God, He does.
Put this discussion to bed, it’s not relevant to the post.
But to reiterate, you don’t get to define how God relates to us and if it’s proper.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:11
No, we speak to Him in prayer, He speaks to us in His eternal word and witnesses with us inside, that He hears, that He is present to us, living within us through His Spirit.
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April 17, 2016 at 16:13
He speaks to you? In what fashion?
Can you explain how this communication occurs as I have never actually heard anyone express it in these terms. What does he actually say to you, personally?
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April 17, 2016 at 16:18
Ark, I am turning you loose so the two of you can talk freely. Don’t be a jerk or you go back to the cage.
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April 18, 2016 at 11:22
Ark, okay then – I accept that you are being honest.
About the history of Yahweh – there is only one history, of His dealings with humankind and of His Incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. That is recorded in the Bible, the inspired, infallible, inerrant, preserved Word of God. No, I haven’t investigated the Ugaritic texts. Why would I want to meddle with certainties?
Yes, our communication with the Lord in prayer and prayerful reading of the Bible is true communication, though you don’t see this. Nothing is served by continuing on about this, because you will claim you know better because you are rational, a limited rationonality, and I will simply say that you are mistaken.
Father in Heaven, please draw Ark by Your Spirit to Your Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Who has all the answers. If we’ve sinned in being ungracious or spiteful to Ark, forgive our sin for Jesus’ sake! Amen.
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April 18, 2016 at 16:09
@Maria
It bothers me somewhat when people use such terms as ‘certainties’, especially when confronted by other evidence that plainly refutes such strongly held views. To me, it also suggests a degree of fear; fear that perhaps one’s beliefs might not be so watertight as one initially thought.
However, your comment gives the impression that you are at least aware of the Ugaratic texts and I suspect you may have heard something about them?
But it’s not for me to tell you what they reveal concerning Yahweh, and I don’t want to incur another bout of wrath from Wally. I’m sure you can read up on them if you so choose.
As for your prayer. Truly, if you honestly believe it works I would feel much better knowing you were using it for a child who is ill or starving. At least it would have some genuine benefit and to save or help the life of a child is a worthy cause.
I do not believe in the doctrine of sin, and Original Sin is a complete fallacy; a heinous theological concept and has absolutely no meaning in my worldview.
Thanks all the same.
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April 18, 2016 at 16:45
hey ark-
If you only knew that it is YOUR recycled arguments that also prove the scriptures. If you only knew what scripture says about people like you who scoff at the contents. Looking for proof outside of scripture to validate scripture? Ha. You may as well try to improve the value of gold by wrapping it in wax paper. The word of God is self contained and needs NO help, got that? no help in proving its veracity. Indeed a book unlike all others, and truth be told, you know this in your heart, even though you will deny it.
The scriptures need no defense. It has wore out every hammer against it. It stands.You will wear out your tongue and you will run out of lame excuses before you can find fault with both He and His word.The word of God is just as reliable as when God SPOKE ‘let there be light.’ There are no defects in Him, you and me? eh, that’s another story.
His word is good, and He has proved it by the living Word Himself, as scripture clearly presents as the Lord Jesus Christ.
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April 18, 2016 at 16:48
Why are you getting so irate, CS?
You tend to use the same apologetic lines over and over.
I have said on many occasion, this means little or nothing to me, so rather offer reasons that will resonate with a skeptic instead of trying to hammer me with apologetics.
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April 18, 2016 at 16:50
“You tend to use the same apologetic lines over and over.”
Ba ha ha ha ha! Says the king of the cut and paste.
What would resonate with you Ark? If the very word of God won’t…then what can any of us say?
Sigh…
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April 18, 2016 at 16:55
What cut and paste? I don’t think I have ever plastered anyone’s blog with C&P.
Maybe you are confusing me with someone else?
The occasional link, yes, but cut and paste are generally not my style, except is very specific instances.
What exactly is the ” …very word of God ….” Wally?
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April 18, 2016 at 16:59
Irate? I dare say you have never heard me irate.
Perfect example how you take information and assign YOUR slant.
And now I will challenge you publickly on what u just said that ‘this means little or nothing to me…………….’ Uh huh, sure, like there is one person in blogland who believes this.
For God’s sake look at your webpage and the depraved posts and comments that you enjoy incl. many of your friends as you slap Christianity around unlike any other faith. That’s a fact. And it means ‘little or nothing’ that you cut and paste and visit every believer who can tolerate the nonsense. Yeah, ok sure.
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April 18, 2016 at 17:03
As a rule I do not cut and paste.
It does mean little or nothing to mean. It is christian apologetics.
You are not using reasoned, well thought out arguments to put across your point, but haranguing from a presuppositional perspective, giving no consideration or regard to non-biblical
evidence that refute your claims at every turn.
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April 18, 2016 at 17:05
That’s not the debate ARk. Foul for general obtuseness is called.
The post is about what God’s Word teaches. Ruling on the field stands. Your non Biblical sources are not relevant to the post.
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April 18, 2016 at 17:17
Debate? Colorstorm is calling me out. Do I not have a right to answer his spurious accusations?
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April 18, 2016 at 17:29
Okay, I understand. Ark, that the things I hold dear mean nothing to you, that you see them as irrational and easily disproved.
Sometimes fear is a good thing, and yes the kind of sources you want me to go to I’m afraid of. When I was younger I thought that I was smart enough to go there. I was mistaken. My faith is dear to me – it’s real and must be defended.
Frankly, I prayed as a way to bring my part of this discussion to an end.
About prayer. He answers. That’s one way to know that our faith has substance.
I’d like to know some things, Who are you? Why do you do this?
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April 18, 2016 at 17:35
I’d like to know some things, Who are you? Why do you do this?
I am no one special. I ”do this” because I have an interest in religion and believe the world would be a better place without it – all religion.
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April 18, 2016 at 17:40
Ark, you are the new face of persecution.
‘Nemo’ ? You at least know many of our first names.
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April 19, 2016 at 05:53
Nemo? Really? Why so melodramatic?
Visit my blog. You’ll find the ”real me” if you simply look!
Besides, I have used Arkenaten as a moniker for so long it has become part of me. And of course I love the irony.
🙂
The face of persecution? Oh, my goodness’ me.
You sound like you you have some sort of Christian persecution complex.
s an adult you are entitled to believe what you lie of course. I like to interact and this is an open forum, albeit somewhat moderated.
I draw your attention to the fact I said ALL religion.
Why would you think I would consider Christianity anything special?
I address Christianity more than other religions simply because, I have a fascination for what draws people to supernatural stuff like the bible. And, (probably) like you, I was raised in a western-christian environment. Thus I am more familiar with Christianity than the others.
I also enjoy certain aspects of biblical archaeology.
And finally, when I read some of the horrendous stories from deconvertees and what they went through as children my gut tends to knot, so what little I can do by way of educating myself regarding Christianity in particular I see as a good thing.
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April 19, 2016 at 10:28
You’re not trying to educate yourself but to destroy our faith.
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April 19, 2016 at 10:46
Destroy?
Evidence suggests religion changes and evolves constantly.
Faith ( in christianity and other religions) is simply accepting and believing in something without any verifiable evidence.
I am merely trying learn as much about it as I am able, thus, as many different perspectives as I can absorb add to to the bouillabaisse of knowledge.
Why on earth would you think I could destroy your faith? Only you can change your personal worldview, as you say you have done so before.
I have never made anyone change what they believe.
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April 19, 2016 at 10:50
That’s an odd comment. I have personally observed you contratulating yourself on those you have lead from faith. Right here…on this very blog…you stated you are here because you want to see all religion done away with.
You lie? How you ask can I tell? Because your lips are moving
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April 19, 2016 at 11:01
You are right, I am happy to say there are at least two people who have cited my blog as reasons for looking more deeply at what they have been indoctrinated with and one who actually deconverted citing a particular post. It slips my mind which one that was.
But I did not start up my blog or read the bible or study Christianity with the sole objective of being Hell Bent (sic) on destroying the faith of Christians.
How arrogant would this be? My goodness!
I read, I study, I learn I write, I share, I interact.
How you, or anyone else for that matter, interprets my words is up to them. And you seem to understand an awful lot about interpretation, yes?
I said I would like to see the end of ALL religion. Yes. Especially for the sake of children everywhere.
I have never said my goal is to destroy faith.
Now this is a lie.
I do not lie. I am not a Christian or a follower of any religion and have no need to lie. Why should I?
If there is a liar among us I would suggest it might be you. I seem to recall you stating flat out my dad was the Devil, Satan himself, did you not?
So let’s be a little more careful before we go handing out the epithets, Wally, shall we?
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April 19, 2016 at 11:07
Yep..indeed. We are all children of God, or of the Father of lies. Obviously any rockhead knows I was not referring to your father on this earth. In fact, I specifically said sorry for any aspersions I might have cast on him. Check it out…lie by ommission.
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April 19, 2016 at 11:24
Any rockhead? How could my ”father” be a make believe character from Christianity?
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April 18, 2016 at 17:32
Anyway, it’s late down here and I have work tomorrow, so I need to catch up on my beauty sleep.
I’ll leave you with this:
You and CS claim that Jesus is God.
You also claim the bible is innerant.
So, how can Jesus be God if … No man hath seen God at any time:
You know this line I’m sure? Let me know what you come up with?
Night night.
Ark.
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April 18, 2016 at 19:19
Ark
I will actually address that question, since it relates to the post and might benefit another reader.
First, you are making the classic interpretation mistake of pulling a single phrase from The Bible and attempting to build a doctrine around it. As I actually covered in one of the posts in this series, that is a classic and common error. Context, context, context. Historical, cultural, and linguistic. Also the context of the redemption narrative as a whole.
Yes, men have seen God. How many times? Well that depends on how many Theophanies you believe occurred in the Bible. Even Jesus said that he who had seen Him had seen the Father. In fact, that is specifically pointed out in one of the posts we seem to be bouncing around from and to.
In context, and I won’t bore you with the full context, this is not what you think it is. I won’t bore you with it because I know you find using The Bible to support what the Bible teaches to be simply nonsensical.
In full context, this references the fact that no man has seen God…in His full glory….and lived. Now, if another wants to pursue this further, I can and will. But there you have it.
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April 19, 2016 at 05:38
Actually the line from John addresses the whole theological mess of the trinity, which you have merely hand waved away and not explained context in the least.
If Moses was unable to ( prevented from) see God ( Yahweh)
then the line from John holds true.
However, I am interested in your interpretation of the Greek wording in this particular passage and how it has changed over time?
Especially if you could please explain it in plain English
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April 19, 2016 at 06:09
Ark
Yes, you are correct that is more or less what that passage discusses. That, however, was not your question. You quoted that with some gleeful shout of triumph with the assertion that in one simple phrase you had disproved the theme of this post. That was your point, I addressed it. Sadly, now you look like a posturing Bible scholar wannabe. Which takes me to your irrelevant question about Greek working. No, I can’t do that, nor will I pretend to be able to. You can’t either, so don’t pretend you can. Google is truly your friend isn’t it.
Now, your question was asked and it was answered.
Of course the line in John is true. It’s all true. Your iterpretation is simply wrong,That phrase clearly does not disprove the deity of Jesus. Period end of story.
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April 19, 2016 at 06:17
What it demonstrates, Wally is the mess that is the trinity, and of course this addresses the issue of Jesus being Yahweh.
My interpretation is different, like so many others, now and before.
Your interpretation is one currently agreed upon by the majority of Christians – but not all, not by a long shot and it seems to be addressed once again as it did in the past prior to Constantine and for centuries afterward.
Yes, I could probably explain the passage, if I put some real effort into it, even though I do not read Greek.
But it would only be for my own benefit.
However, you are the believer, so if you cannot explain the passage, how on earth do you know what you believe is the correct interpretation?
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April 19, 2016 at 06:24
ARk…you made an assertion of something as fact. Now, you say it’s not. Sad for you
Yes, it is agree upon by all Christians. Those who say otherwise are something else.
Ark, of course I can get books and dig into this and probably do a passable job of dealing with the Greek. However, I am not required to do that to prove it to you.
You asserted this passage disproved this post. You were wrong.
As has been stated, you will not make your case nickel and diming this argument with phrases from the Word. Interpretation doesn’t
work that way.
Now, your statement as it relates to this post had been addressed, so move on.
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April 19, 2016 at 06:32
No, I said it highlighted the entire mess of the Trinity.
It is not agreed upon by all Christians, as it wasn’t back when.
And if they consider themselves Christian who are you to say they are not?
Based on what? em>Your interpretation of the bible?
And once again, you resort to attacking me rather than address the very complicated issue of the Trinity and the passage in John.
And a simple straightforward reading of the passage ( and other parts) clearly shows that there is a definite separation of the Son and the Father.
But if you would like to explain it without going after me personally, I am more than prepared to carefully read what you post.
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April 19, 2016 at 06:39
You assertion was that in one simple phrase, you disproved my post. You were wrong.
Again, I state, one does not interpret the Bible from a sentence, nor build or tear down a doctrine based on one phrase. Your continued efforts to do so actually prove the the entire universe prove that you are an incompetent Bible expositor. That is not a personal attack, ARk, that is simply a fact.
I am done the conversation on the passage. Your assertion has been proven wrong, and now you are trying to divert attention away from that fact by chasing unrelated rabbit trails.
So, allow me to unbury your defeat in this issue.
Your assertion was that passage disproves this post. You are incorrect.
Move on
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April 19, 2016 at 06:49
My assertion is that the passage ( and other passages throughout the gospels) clearly shows that there is a definite delineation between the Father ( Yahweh) and the son( Jesus).
You have proved nothing. Proofs are generally reserved for Maths.
All you have done in the post is deny counter arguments by claiming they are heretical doctrine and I continue to ask , based upon what? And you continue to hand wave and offer no genuine explanation.
If you cannot explain it then how do you know you are correct?
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April 19, 2016 at 06:57
Proofs are reserved for math
Odd…you say that when another makes you look like a posturing fool. You on the other hand make sweeping assertions of opinion and claim them as if they are fact.
Yes, there is a deliniation between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are three persons. Yet one.
Understand it? Nope sure don’t. I won’t pretend to, therefore I cannot explain it to you.
Which is a another useful tool for proper Bible interpretation. Sometimes is just is what it is. The fact that we cant’ get our heads around a teaching does not make the teaching invalid. It just means we are not God.
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April 19, 2016 at 07:26
Thank you. This is what I suspected.
Just what it is Really?
Again, how do you know you are correct in your interpretation and not someone like Marcus Borg?
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April 19, 2016 at 08:34
This reply is for Wally specifically, to lend a bit of daylight to a friend; others may appreciate it:
Certain folks demand answers from scripture, Sola scriptura! they shout, while at the same time deny the authority from scripture which gives the answers their only merit. Look at the supreme lack of logic being engaged, where the precursor to the question, guarantees ANY answer as completely unacceptable.
There is no correct answer to the atheist under his own terms.
Would it be wrong of me to laugh at such a statement? Hoop jumping, fact twisting, and logic avoiding are all used to justify further unbelief, while at the same time charging the believer with malfeasance. Indeed, it is the believers fault the truth is vague! Yea, there’s a chuckle in there somewhere.
The word of God needs no defense. A man may as well deny that frozen water, aka ice, or steam, aka water, are not all one. Doth not nature itself teach you? Scripture is light years ahead of mans petty gripes, and dismisses instantly every act of mutiny on the ship of fools.
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April 19, 2016 at 08:43
Nice, friend, thanks for that. Good encouragement there and much needed.
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April 19, 2016 at 09:01
Excellent, Colorstorm.
Would you be able to actually help out with an explanation. The part that Wally is unable to do?
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April 19, 2016 at 10:13
Oh, and I as for this:
Not me. I read it like any other text and if the evidence pans out then I acknowledge it.
So far, in all the years I have read it and ( on occasion) studied it, it has not revealed any verifiable meaningful truth at all.
In fact, almost the entirety of the text has been shown to be either ( mostly) fallacious or simply contradictory throughout.
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April 19, 2016 at 10:29
Wally, here is a link to a YouTube playlist about atheism and its modern origins in the Counter-Reformation Society of Jesus.
https://m.youtube.com/#/playlist?list=PL96m5jn_nxhsvXuYwCy22oGoSlbg8h5g4
About Ark’ s moniker – yes, it is ironic – from Wiki,
Akhenaten (/ˌækəˈnɑːtən/;[1] also spelled Echnaton,[7] Akhenaton,[8] Ikhnaton,[9] and Khuenaten;[10][11] meaning “Effective for Aten”) known before the fifth year of his reign as Amenhotep IV (sometimes given its Greek form, Amenophis IV, and meaning Amun is Satisfied), was a pharaoh of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt who ruled for 17 years and died perhaps in 1336 BC or 1334 BC. He is especially noted for abandoning traditional Egyptian polytheism and introducing worship centered on the Aten, which is sometimes described as monotheistic or henotheistic. An early inscription likens the Aten to the sun as compared to stars, and later official language avoids calling the Aten a god, giving the solar deity a status above mere gods.
You and CS have defended the faith.
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April 19, 2016 at 10:31
Hmmm…you’ve done rather admirably yourself, Maria. Thanks for the support.
A threefold cord is not easily broken.
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April 19, 2016 at 10:36
a threefold cord, yes!
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May 6, 2016 at 20:38
Reblogged this on Redbird's Roost.
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