we did… this fallen nature is not what we were created with.
once A&E decided to obey Satan instead of God, they forfeited the Spirit of God that was within them for this fallen human spirit.
It is for this reason Jesus died, so when you receive Him as your Lord (one you choose to obey) and Savior (one who saves you)… He removes your old nature/human spirit and gives you God’s nature/spirit.
Satan, in the garden was Lucifer – stripped of all his angelic powers (due to rebellion), without authority.
It was only after he deceived A&E he became the god of this world, usurping their power and authority through deception.
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
j z,
In the garden initially as Lucifer, he wasn’t in rebellion until he conceived (thought about) then carried out his sin against God.
Through the successful deception of A&E he now became Satan, now possessing the power and authority (dominion) that God had given to A&E.
j z,
I believed I answered but since you want to pinpoint me to a specific moment – let’s give it a shot.
sin/rebellion must first be conceived (thought about) before it can be carried through. No one can do anything without giving it thought or conceiving it as a thought first.
Obviously, Lucifer was jealous of A&E and also wanted to be like The Most High God – God had given the earth to them to rule over, and had made them only a little lower than God Himself, and higher than the angels.
The moment Lucifer carried out his plot – put thoughts into action, and successfully deceived E with A going along knowingly, that’s the moment he became Satan.
So before he spoke to A&E his thoughts were corrupted, after that his actions became corrupted.
So before he spoke to A&E his thoughts were corrupted, after that his actions became corrupted.
Well, that’s not exactly true. Revelation 12:7-9: Satan Thrown Out of Heaven ,
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
So, Satan had sinned in heaven, before Adam and Eve. The angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7), and Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14).
So, no, you still haven’t answered the question. Could you please?
Yes, or No: was Satan, in the Garden before tempting Adam and Eve, evil?
we did… this fallen nature is not what we were created with.”
But I didn’t create myself depraved or with a fallen nature or with a sin nature. Who did this? Who put all of this into the fertilized egg that grew up to be me?
David,
you are right. you did not do this to yourself, your fore parents (A&E) did.
But, don’t despair, there is GOOD NEWS!
For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one [Adam]; MUCH MORE they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness SHALL REIGN IN LIFE BY one, Jesus Christ.)
Get into Jesus Christ, my friend, and begin to reign in life. Sin will no longer have dominion over you. You are the devil’s master, he only has power people give to him through lack of knowledge of their now true identity.
Jesus paid a great price, and just as you didn’t deserve the sin nature of Adam, you didn’t deserve the righteous nature of God, but that is what Jesus gives to you. So freely take and live, reign in righteousness.
@ j z: “Well, that’s not exactly true. Revelation 12:7-9: Satan Thrown Out of Heaven ,
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon…”
While I’m happy to see you quoting Scripture, stay tuned my friend as Revelation 12 has not happened yet. Isn’t the Word of God amazing!
While you’re staying tuned in, keep an eye out for the manifesting of the “Man-child company” the group of believers who will carry out this monumental and heaven-shaking act.
Another thing, please don’t think this heaven is speaking of the Heaven where our God dwells.
@theancients
@theancients
You are aware that the doctrine of Original Sin is a Christian construct, yes?
Genesis was written by Jews for Jews and was meant simply as an analogous story; not to be taken or read literally
I mean, what sort of person actually believe the nonsense of eating the ”poison apple” and a talking snake. Cute story, but very, very silly to take it literally.
No, there is no Original Sin in Judaism.
Now, Jesus was a Jew and he did not ever preach or teach Original Sin.
In fact, the doctrine can be traced to Augustine, who adapted what Paul said.
This is Christianity 101. Don’t they teach you this stuff at Bible Study?
@ j z,
I’ve sufficiently answered your question. The fact you’re unhappy with the answer doesn’t negate the answer.
Back to the awesomeness of our creator – It’s God who declares the end from the beginning, and as you’ve seen with Revelation 12, He has no problems whatsoever telling you what will happen in the future, because like ALL His Words – they’re steadfast, they sure, and they must come to pass.
To God be the glory — yes, I’m literally breaking out in song 🙂 That’s MY God.
Blessings guys… gotta run..
Bro Wally… thanks for giving me a moment and encouragement.
I’ve sufficiently answered your question. The fact you’re unhappy with the answer doesn’t negate the answer.
It appears to me you have a rather odd understanding of the word, “sufficient.”
I asked you six times if Satan was evil before he tempted Adam and Evil. You avoided answering this question six times, offering up instead something about Satan only being corrupted because he had not acted. Well, he had acted, he acted in heaven and was cast out. He was banished for a reason, was he not?
But maybe I’m just daft? Perhaps I’m just not understanding you, so maybe you can clarify your remarks. Are you saying being “corrupted” is not the same as being “evil”?
If so, could you explain precisely what the difference is?
“You did not do this to yourself, your fore parents (A&E) did.”
But A and E are dead. They could not have implanted a sin nature into the fertilized egg that turned into me. So, who did the actual creation and implantation of the sin nature into the fertilized egg that became me? Who did this when I was not responsible for the sins of A and E?
“…You didn’t deserve the sin nature of Adam.”
Well, no, I wouldn’t think that I did. So, who gave this to me? Who had the power to give me a sin nature, a nature that I didn’t deserve?
how is corrupted not understood as evil.
Since it seems you wanted that particular word to be used, here it is, and I hope you are now wonderfully settled.
jz, this is you quoting me: *So before he spoke to A&E, his thoughts were corrupted, after that his actions became corrupted.*
Since you seem to have a misunderstanding with corrupted, lets remove it and use the word evil.
Lucifer conceived evil thoughts, and his actions that followed (no action can happen without you conceiving it first in your thought life) were evil. And yes, all this transpired in the garden of Eden.
“Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
You do err, if you believe for one moment that the Garden of Eden is where God dwells. It is just one of the heavenly domains.
Even now, the devil doesn’t live on earth. The realm of space that we call the cosmos or the universe is a physical domain but it carries with it a spiritual, parallel domain equivalent to the heavenly or the high places. This realm, though parallel to space is higher than space itself since it operates at frequencies much higher than what the material world understands. This is the realm that Michael and his angels also patrol. See Daniel.
So it is this realm that Revelation 12 references (war in heaven) and as I mentioned and you seem to be conveniently sidestepping, these events have not happened yet.
No matter how you try to parse it my friend, evil is a product of our thoughts that have been put into action. Truly, a man is what he thinks.
Ark, actually, he was the “devil” already in the garden
Revelation 12:7-9:
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
Ah … God-breathed or something, yes? From Timothy, right? Another one of the epistles that scholars consider pseudoepigraphical:
Forgery to you and me.
There is no evidence, either within scripture or without, that suggests that the snake in the G of E myth was Satan – that was and always has been an interpretation. In fact, “Satan” as an evil spirit doesn’t even appear in the Bible until after the Babylonian captivity, when the Jews came into contact with the Persians, who freed them to return to the Levant, and the religion of those Persians, Zoroastrianism. which pre-dates Christianity by 600 years.
In Zoroastrianism, there is a good god, Ahura Mazda and his evil adversary, Angra Mainyu. According to Zoroastrianism, to which the captive Jews were exposed in 500 BCE:
The final savior of the world, Saoshyant, will be born to a virgin impregnated by the seed of Zoroaster while bathing in a lake. Saoshyant will raise the dead – including those in both heaven and hell – for final judgment, returning the wicked to hell to be purged of bodily sin.
— and the idea of a son of a god, born of a virgin, as savior of the world, was born.
see above: evil is a product of our thoughts that have been put into action.
Who controls your thoughts j z.
Are you not implored to take all thoughts that are holding you captive into captivity and subject them to the obedience of Christ. Let Jesus be your sufficiency, and strength, He does it best.
What thoughts are holding people in captivity, theancients.
This does not make any sense to me. Can you ( or Wally ) explain in straightforward English, please.
Again, the hand waving. You do this every damn time you get caught between a rock and a hard place. Why don”t you man up and simply answer the questions truthfully and honestly?
What is so damn difficult?
And it’s okay to say ”I don’t understand either, but I will research and find out, Ark”.
How hard is that?
Oh, and while we are on the subject of learning stuff, why don’t you read my post about hell. It will open your eyes.
And you descend into cursing and insults anytime a person refuses to pander to you all day long. How about you read anything on my blog about the glorious salvation available through Jesus Christ. I will open your eyes.
It’s different for each person Ark:
Addictions –
Victim’s Mind Set-
Codependency –
Jesus is the one who does most of the work in taking captivity captive; it’s for us to willing cooperate through our free will in wanting the changes that renew our minds.
This includes accepting responsibility for our thought life and actions. Not allowing our minds to be molded by the world, but rather expanding it to fit the heavenly pattern.
Why do you care Ark? Would it make any difference? No, it would not. And even if theancients chooses to explain, you wont’ accept the answer. So, I would not bother. But, he can if he chooses. Just keep it clean and stop with the insults. Any more of that and…poof..you disappear.
Ego can be a positive attribute as well, providing it is used for good.
Worldly knowledge has helped fight a great many diseases and illness, such as TB, polio and is working toward a cure for HIV/AIDS
Worldly knowledge has developed the computer and is making our ”Global Village” smaller by the day.
Worldly knowledge has increased enlightenment and reduced certain vile aspects of superstition, such as Witch Burning.
Worldly knowledge introduced the printing press, allowing the bible to be brought to most of humanity and now, at last , with the internet we are beginning to fully understand it, and the positive results of this are slowly beginning to show.
Yes, there are still wars etc but humans are generally moving in an upward fashion as we strive for self -actualization.
This seems like enlightenment to me?
Where in this is bondage?
Can you be more specific?
@ Ark, only in the world is ego seen as a positive attribute.
It’s the human ego that exalts its mere earthly wisdom, limited knowledge and understanding against all that God is, in essence making itself god (putting one’s throne higher than God’s).
I liked your comment because I agree that humans have being able to accomplish much through the application of knowledge.
But,
Man hasn’t created anything new; he’s just discovered the laws that the Lord established from the beginning. “Bird brains” have been flying from the start. The same is true with communications, electricity, computing, and a host of other modern breakthroughs. Man is just discovering the laws God created.
Although mankind has made huge discoveries that have totally changed the way we live, it seems like we know less about ourselves than previous generations. While our ancestors didn’t have all the modern conveniences, they had a peace and strength that eludes most today. As our knowledge of our natural world has increased, our knowledge of spiritual things has decreased. In man’s arrogance, he blindly believes all of life’s problems can be solved by himself. But there can be no peace without if there isn’t peace within.
There is a whole universe that man in all his wisdom is ignorant of. That is the world of the spirit. And I’m not just talking about the spiritual realm outside of us but also the spiritual being inside of every person.” – A. Wommack
The last part was my main point but I wanted you to get the gist of where I was coming from.
Don’t neglect the spiritual you, because that is really who you are. You are spirit, tightly sealed and protected in a body of clay/flesh.
It’s only through the reign of a just and righteous King that you’ll have victory over all your enemies – death, disease, economic struggles, unresolved conflicts, all that worries us etc.
Ark, only in the world is ego seen as a positive attribute.
As we are in the world and I am guessing by ‘’world’’ you mean existence this is probably the most dumbass statement I have read in a while.
It’s the human ego that exalts its mere earthly wisdom, limited knowledge and understanding against all that God is, in essence making itself god (putting one’s throne higher than God’s).
Whenever a person introduces the term god into a dialogue it is good manners that the person states which deity they are referring to. That way the other person will know how to more appropriately respond. So, which god are you talking about, please?
I liked your comment because I agree that humans have being able to accomplish much through the application of knowledge.
But,
Man hasn’t created anything new; he’s just discovered the laws that the Lord established from the beginning. “Bird brains” have been flying from the start. The same is true with communications, electricity, computing, and a host of other modern breakthroughs. Man is just discovering the laws God created.
Again, there really are so many deities that humans worship, so please, which god are you talking about?
Although mankind has made huge discoveries that have totally changed the way we live, it seems like we know less about ourselves than previous generations. While our ancestors didn’t have all the modern conveniences, they had a peace and strength that eludes most today. As our knowledge of our natural world has increased, our knowledge of spiritual things has decreased. In man’s arrogance, he blindly believes all of life’s problems can be solved by himself. But there can be no peace without if there isn’t peace within.
Sadly,this is one of those bulldust theological, metaphysical nonsensical answers that bears absolutely no relevance to the truth. This is currently one of the more peaceful times in human history.
Furthermore, religion and all sorts of god belief in all their sordid repulsive variations has been complicit in so much of the violence and degradation that has been the bane of humanity.
There is a whole universe that man in all his wisdom is ignorant of. That is the world of the spirit. And I’m not just talking about the spiritual realm outside of us but also the spiritual being inside of every person.” – A. Wommack
Ah … spiritualism. Interesting. There is a point?
The last part was my main point but I wanted you to get the gist of where I was coming from.
Don’t neglect the spiritual you, because that is really who you are. You are spirit, tightly sealed and protected in a body of clay/flesh. It’s only through the reign of a just and righteous King that you’ll have victory over all your enemies – death, disease, economic struggles, unresolved conflicts, all that worries us etc.
Ah, well and here you go off on one of your esoteric talking-donkey style tangents.
History has shown that Ruling by Divine Right that Kings and Queens have been wont to do has also been a major cause of war, disease, famine etc etc which tends to pee on you rather sill analogy, doesn’t it?
Again, may I ask if there was actually a point you were trying to make?
So there you have it John. Your question clearly answered. If you day that is not an answer, then it simply means it is not the answer you want. Or rather it is not the one that agrees with you. Keep at this and it’s trash bin again.
Evil is a product of our thoughts? Some is, sure. What about floods? What about fires? What about the Hoverfly larva who will capture the milkweed aphid and sink in their vacuum cleaner-like mouths, slowly sucking the creature’s living innards out while it struggles to hold onto life. What about cancer? As David Barash noted:
“Although the natural world can be marvellous, it is also filled with ethical horrors: predation, parasitism, fratricide, infanticide, disease, pain, old age and death — and that suffering is built into the nature of things.”
John. It’s that person’s answer. It is not the answer you want. What you want is agreement, and anything else is called a non answer by you. That is obvious. You are a waste of my time.
But I see he’s already agreed above, Satan was, in fact, evil in the Garden…. Hence, by your own story, evil did not begin with Adam and Eve.
As to his allusion that Satan hasn’t actually fallen yet, I have no idea what he’s talking about and will just file that rambling nonsense away with other rambling religious nonsense I often encounter. Of course, Ezekiel 28:12-18 details it quite well.
@ j z,
It’s obvious you’re reading things into what I never said. I never alluded that Satan hasn’t fallen, I said he still dwells in the heavenly domain. And if this is not true, then explain “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer”
If a place was not found for them any longer then obviously up until that point he was still in the heavenly domain.
I don’t use words lightly when I say man ought to hold in awesome esteem our Creator. If one doesn’t understand the physical things how will one understand the things of the heavens.
We have a tremendous inheritance jz, I pray you take the time to read the Bible in the light its written, you’ll be amazed by the glorious, extravagant, brilliant, awesomeness that is Our God.
gotta run…
Thanks again Bro Wally…(gotta go back and read that Ruth-less joke) 🙂
Who on earth cares where Satan resides? I didn’t ask about residence, I asked about an event detailed in a story… and you have since confirmed, Yes, Satan was evil when he was in the garden. Given Satan was evil we may conclude evil existed in Creation before Adam and Eve.
That’s all I was concerned with. It is a story, after all. Now, how you, the theist who believes this story, responds to this revelation is up to you.
That’s an incorrect and unwise conclusion and it says you do not care about truth; you are more enamored with your trivial arguments.
I don’t expect the following sentence to mean anything to you, it’s there to vindicate the truth of the Word to those who are seeking to know the true nature of God. “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
If tomorrow you discover you have something you weren’t born with; it would be a complete lie/ignorance to conclude you were born with it.
Indeed, you are correct John. Ignorance is a choice. Why do you persist in remaining that way? Even in the face of your willful rejection of Him and fist waving at Him, God would instantly and forever forget all of that upon your simple repentance and faith.
j z,
you are correct that Satan was evil before he spoke to A &E, but from this very statement A&E were present, so I guess the point you’re trying to make is that evil didn’t begin with man but with Satan, which every Christian agrees with.
Isn’t that what every believer says: The woman was deceived by the devil. So you’ve spent your time arguing a non-point.
Friend, Christianity is information in a world devoid of information, it is precious light in a world devoid of light and consumed by darkness. Those who want to stumble will stay away from the precious words of God but those who seek to find refuge from the bitterness of the darkness (a form of ignorance) will humbly come to the Light.
Darkness is deep ignorance. Believing the lies of the devil is ignorance.
I have to shake my head at either your willful misunderstanding or your desperate need to keep a non-point (that you clearly think is a HUGE point) going.
The devil cannot force you nor could he force A&E to do anything. Deception is the only tool of the devil, and he needs a person’s consent and co0peration in order to get whatever he wants done.
You have already fallen hook, line and sinker for his deception: “Yea, did God say”…
You can continue with this empty argument …I’ll continue with my relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Christian narrative is that evil came into this world through Adam and Eve. That, evidently, is contradicted by the story itself. Evil existed in Creation before man. Creation was corrupted before the Garden. The angels fell before man… Heaven was diseased before Adam… the tumour Christianity blames on man was, as we can see, already well-established. Yhwh had already lost control of his Creation.
Actually John you have no understanding of the Christian narrative whatsoever as you constantly get it wrong. Quite no purpose I suspect as you are far from stupid. I see where you are heading with this so don’t bother as it’s not happening. And don’t fake ignorance John about where you are heading just don’t head there.
I haven’t hidden where I’m heading. In fact, I’ve laid it right out there. By your own narrative, the one shaped from Judaism, evil existed in creation before man. The angels fell before man. Original sin does not lay at Adams feet, but the angels. This is why there is no original sin narrative in Judaism… It’s a Christian invention, and it contradicts the bedrock narrative.
John you have been moderated. You ask the same question over and over and never engage the answer. You are only looking to repeat your own point over and over. Move on
From certain words strung together by your ‘friends’ who are regular patrons to your site, and agreed by you, some would attest that moderating is quite useful.
But what passes for the need for ‘scrutiny,’ is merely an excuse to continue a dialog in areas that have long been settled.
‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.’ Scrutinize that.
How can creation be corrupted before the Garden, when Adam was formed and then taken to the Garden.
Gen 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
It was in the Garden that help was sought and provided for Adam. Gen 2:18-20
You seem to think man and the angels are the same.
Meditate on why redemption is given to man but not to angels.
Friend, when you humble, reverence, and esteem the creator of this universe, then you’ll get a glimpse into His marvelous love for mankind and His true nature.
I am not talking only of man, but of Creation itself. Can you not broaden your thoughts to include the All? The All was diseased before man. Original sin is not man’s, but the angels. Creation was corrupted before Yhwh made man. As such, he brought man into an already failed and decomposing Creation.
Your last 2 sentences are completely false.
I just showed you that man was placed in the garden before beasts etc. were formed.
Gen 3:1 The serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field that the Lord God had made…
Funny, if man was brought into a failed and decomposing creation then evolution is a complete and total lie.
This is my last comment.
Keep your deception, I’ll stick with the Word of God.
Again, why are you limiting your thoughts to just the human/earthly theatre? Creation is far broader than that.
The angels were created before the earth and before man (Job 38:4-7). Evil entered Creation before the earth, and before man. Creation was diseased and the tumor was already growing before Yhwh fashioned man.
Yhwh, therefore, brought man into an infected, corrupted, impure world.
Not a response to you: Just want to set things straight so no one is deceived by your deliberate misinformation.
Sin is rebellion against God. It requires an action. Evil is a product of our thoughts that have been put into action.
How is God responsible for a beings rebellion, evil thoughts & actions. He’s NOT.
Everything I mentioned above did not take place in the earth. This shows you do not know where Eden & the garden is. (If it had taken place on the earth, how could they have been sent back to the ground from which they came).
Man was formed from the dust of the ground, then taken from this ground and placed in a protected Garden, “eastward” in Eden.
I already mentioned above the beasts were formed from the ground of this Garden – clearly after Adam was living in it & Eve not yet formed.
John, it is interesting to contemplate another verse: ‘I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.’ (Isaiah 45:7)
A question I used to sometimes be asked was “why did God create the Devil?”
@ Peter. May I make an observation Peter? You fairly consistently point fingers at Christians over two issues. Issue one is, you say we have treated you badly. Issue two is you say we refuse to engage you in dialogue and answer your concerns.
Yet, several times lately I have attempted to engage you in direct dialogue and have been completely ignored. Yet, when you do show up on my blog, it is invariably in the company of folks like John Zande, or Ark, who clearly have an anti Christian agenda.
I find that odd since you lay claim to constant mistreatment by Christians and also that we don’t want to actually converse with you. Perhaps there are valid reasons you are considered suspect Peter.
Think about that some. In the meantime, this is not the forum for you and John to conduct your assaults on God’s Word. If you want to do that, get a blog. If you want to talk like an adult, then we can do that here.
for once I agree with you, no one ate a “poisoned apple”… but like you, they’re feasting on “poisoned” doctrine everyday.
Once more this goes straight over my head.
Exactly what ”poisoned” doctrine are you talking about? Can you be specific rather than seemingly vague and ambiguous?
I’d like to borrow a thought from my friend insanitybytes22, who observed recently that some do not see ‘the big picture.’
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.’
God has no defects; it is we the people who come up short, both by birth and practice.
It may help if you would try for once to see things from His point of view, instead of the dusty bins of collected unbelief, and follow the Creator’s footprints, instead of making Him walk in yours.
And how many times has this been answered for you David? Many many it has. No answer satisfies. It’s not that it has not been explained but that you don’t like the conditions of the answer. But again it is not God’s Word that falls short here but you. In fact falling short is the problem. Mine. Yours. All of us
And yes, I understand that we sin “by nature.” And God created us with that “nature.” Now, is that “nature” that was created by God a good thing or a bad thing?
So says the commenter who just ignored a direct question. David I do not exist to simply answer one question after another from you. No answer satisfies you. Not following every trail you take is not evasion and for you to state such is quite presumptuous. So it goes
I doubt he will bother, as it’s usually a losing proposition to talk with you David, as you aren’t here to talk, just argue. Oh, yeah…you never answered my question….just what would it take for you to believe?
That’s a fair answer David, and thanks for it. I really didn’t have a reason for asking, it just popped in my head to be honest. I appreciate the honesty.
yes.
The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God:
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s:
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host,
“‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.’ Scrutinize that.”
— Colorstorm —
Gladly, CS – that sentence was written in the 500’s BCE, by anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Aaronid priests in captivity in Babylon, who knew nothing of how the Cosmos came to be.
when your questions are provided with solid evidence from the Bible, suddenly Scripture is written by “anonymous, superstitious (priests- if they’re anonymous, how do you know they’re priests) who know nothing of the cosmos.”
instead of asking for evidence, why don’t you provide yours, and I won’t even be disappointed if you cite your evidence from Scripture.
After all of the criteria, with which you had objection, this is what your going with?
“em”instead of asking for evidence, why don’t you provide yours</em" – I asked first, you answer first, that's how it works –!
Exactly how does satan, a limited finite, non-omnipresent fallen angel know my past or anyone/everyone’s past?
Are we in danger of giving him godlike powers and abilities?
Another thought is that in the OT, satan is the adversary of man on God’s payroll for His purposes at His command.
In the NT and in Christian theology, he seems to be the adversary of God (dualistic, equal opponent) on his own dime and setting up a competing ‘downline’ of human servants like a bad MLM scheme. Not even as a christian should the biblically literate give this spiritual Crack dealer the kind of credit we give him.
Which is it? OT servant of God or NT megalomaniac?
-KIA
As Wally once publicly stated that my Dad was the Devil, you can relax. My father’s ( self-confessed) computer skills run to, ”Mother, which is the on button again?”
@ KIA. Odd this is. You ask me not to follow your blog, yet you demand free will to come here and preach your atheist doctrine. Cut it off. Write your own blog about it. That’s pretty safe, as nobody reads it anyway.
@ KIA and Ark. Really? Coming to a writer’s blog in the middle of the night and piling up stupid, childish comments is adult discussion? Cut it off.
@ Arch. Same to you. Come up with some other argument besides mockery and insults.
Just a quick comment Wally – we’re all in different time zones, working different shifts and I know you try to respond quickly. But complaining about when people respond is a bit unfair. Sure complain about content, style, attitude, views, as you do. But timing?
I agree Wally, the conversation has long been over, identically the same way the sin issue was once and for all settled with the uttering of ‘it is finished,’ covering clearly all the nonsense, petty insults, misrepresentations, innuendoes, slander, and all the other garbage tossed at scripture, as clearly demonstrated by the naysayers here.
And oh, ‘Forever O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.’ Yeah, like scripture can be unsettled by a few pebble tossers.
You lay your own snare john, then walk right in where you are spiritually frozen in logic.
You incorrectly say I am angry here, the same way you misrepresent the character of God. Not too smart.
‘Diseased?’ Your word. I see the glory of God where you see tohu va bohu.
I see a great God above all, you see a failing image of your own projection.
Once more though, if I were a doctor and you visited me, I would kindly ask you WHY you devote your life, your energy, your every breath, to that which you despise…………….
—Is this not the equivalent of a father moving his children into a house that is already ablaze?—
I repeat, you set your own trap. If the house were ‘already ablaze,’ strange then how I could see the glory of God in the face of such madness. No, john, you conclusion is wrong because your premise is wrong.
The scriptures cannot be broken, yet you try to break…………God is much stronger than you or I, and His word is much better than yours or mine.
‘It is forever settled in heaven.’ And since it is settled, I too am saying good bye to this thread.
What a wonderful message, Wally! The concept is so important to abuse victims, who very often carry misplaced guilt and focus on their own shortcomings (or perceived shortcomings). Thank you.
And what a great comment Anna. As I have told you before, I really value how you take the words we hear in Scripture and apply them to reality in the lives of real people. Thank you my friend, Wally
It is rather ominous isn’t it? Especially if you happen to be Satan! Understand the future? Ha..hardly. I know there is one, and I know God has it planned out perfectly. Other than that? I am not to hung up on end times stuff. Too much yet to see happen here, and too many lost souls.
Silence thanks for coming by, reading, and commenting.
Truth in Palmyra 
October 16, 2015 at 08:03
Where does evil come from?
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October 16, 2015 at 10:10
evil comes from the human spirit/ heart (not the physical organ).
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October 16, 2015 at 10:18
Who created the human spirit/heart?
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October 16, 2015 at 10:29
we did… this fallen nature is not what we were created with.
once A&E decided to obey Satan instead of God, they forfeited the Spirit of God that was within them for this fallen human spirit.
It is for this reason Jesus died, so when you receive Him as your Lord (one you choose to obey) and Savior (one who saves you)… He removes your old nature/human spirit and gives you God’s nature/spirit.
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October 16, 2015 at 10:32
So, Satan in the garden wasn’t evil?
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October 16, 2015 at 10:39
Satan, in the garden was Lucifer – stripped of all his angelic powers (due to rebellion), without authority.
It was only after he deceived A&E he became the god of this world, usurping their power and authority through deception.
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
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October 16, 2015 at 10:54
So, yes or no: Satan (in the garden) wasn’t evil?
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October 16, 2015 at 11:06
j z,
In the garden initially as Lucifer, he wasn’t in rebellion until he conceived (thought about) then carried out his sin against God.
Through the successful deception of A&E he now became Satan, now possessing the power and authority (dominion) that God had given to A&E.
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October 16, 2015 at 11:13
So, Yes or No: Was Lucifer (in the garden, before he spoke to Adam and Eve) evil? Was he corrupted, Yes or No?
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October 16, 2015 at 11:28
j z,
I believed I answered but since you want to pinpoint me to a specific moment – let’s give it a shot.
sin/rebellion must first be conceived (thought about) before it can be carried through. No one can do anything without giving it thought or conceiving it as a thought first.
Obviously, Lucifer was jealous of A&E and also wanted to be like The Most High God – God had given the earth to them to rule over, and had made them only a little lower than God Himself, and higher than the angels.
The moment Lucifer carried out his plot – put thoughts into action, and successfully deceived E with A going along knowingly, that’s the moment he became Satan.
So before he spoke to A&E his thoughts were corrupted, after that his actions became corrupted.
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October 16, 2015 at 11:44
@theancients
So before he spoke to A&E his thoughts were corrupted, after that his actions became corrupted.
Well, that’s not exactly true. Revelation 12:7-9: Satan Thrown Out of Heaven ,
So, Satan had sinned in heaven, before Adam and Eve. The angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7), and Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14).
So, no, you still haven’t answered the question. Could you please?
Yes, or No: was Satan, in the Garden before tempting Adam and Eve, evil?
Yes, or No…
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October 16, 2015 at 11:34
we did… this fallen nature is not what we were created with.”
But I didn’t create myself depraved or with a fallen nature or with a sin nature. Who did this? Who put all of this into the fertilized egg that grew up to be me?
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October 16, 2015 at 11:45
David,
you are right. you did not do this to yourself, your fore parents (A&E) did.
But, don’t despair, there is GOOD NEWS!
For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one [Adam]; MUCH MORE they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness SHALL REIGN IN LIFE BY one, Jesus Christ.)
Get into Jesus Christ, my friend, and begin to reign in life. Sin will no longer have dominion over you. You are the devil’s master, he only has power people give to him through lack of knowledge of their now true identity.
Jesus paid a great price, and just as you didn’t deserve the sin nature of Adam, you didn’t deserve the righteous nature of God, but that is what Jesus gives to you. So freely take and live, reign in righteousness.
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October 16, 2015 at 12:05
@ j z: “Well, that’s not exactly true. Revelation 12:7-9: Satan Thrown Out of Heaven ,
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon…”
While I’m happy to see you quoting Scripture, stay tuned my friend as Revelation 12 has not happened yet. Isn’t the Word of God amazing!
While you’re staying tuned in, keep an eye out for the manifesting of the “Man-child company” the group of believers who will carry out this monumental and heaven-shaking act.
Another thing, please don’t think this heaven is speaking of the Heaven where our God dwells.
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October 16, 2015 at 12:05
@theancients
@theancients
You are aware that the doctrine of Original Sin is a Christian construct, yes?
Genesis was written by Jews for Jews and was meant simply as an analogous story; not to be taken or read literally
I mean, what sort of person actually believe the nonsense of eating the ”poison apple” and a talking snake. Cute story, but very, very silly to take it literally.
No, there is no Original Sin in Judaism.
Now, Jesus was a Jew and he did not ever preach or teach Original Sin.
In fact, the doctrine can be traced to Augustine, who adapted what Paul said.
This is Christianity 101. Don’t they teach you this stuff at Bible Study?
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October 16, 2015 at 12:09
@Ark,
for once I agree with you, no one ate a “poisoned apple”… but like you, they’re feasting on “poisoned” doctrine everyday.
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October 16, 2015 at 12:16
@theancients
I’m afraid you still haven’t addressed the question.
Is there any particular reason why you’re avoiding it?
Yes, or No: was Satan, in the Garden before tempting Adam and Eve, evil?
Yes, or No…
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October 16, 2015 at 12:30
John that has been answered. Move on
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October 16, 2015 at 12:47
No it hasn’t Wally.
Yes or No: Was Satan evil before he tempted Adam and Eve?
It’s a pretty simple question, isn’t it?
Yes, or No….
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October 16, 2015 at 12:28
@ j z,
I’ve sufficiently answered your question. The fact you’re unhappy with the answer doesn’t negate the answer.
Back to the awesomeness of our creator – It’s God who declares the end from the beginning, and as you’ve seen with Revelation 12, He has no problems whatsoever telling you what will happen in the future, because like ALL His Words – they’re steadfast, they sure, and they must come to pass.
To God be the glory — yes, I’m literally breaking out in song 🙂 That’s MY God.
Blessings guys… gotta run..
Bro Wally… thanks for giving me a moment and encouragement.
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October 16, 2015 at 12:31
My pleasure brother and thanks
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October 16, 2015 at 12:45
@theancients
I’ve sufficiently answered your question. The fact you’re unhappy with the answer doesn’t negate the answer.
It appears to me you have a rather odd understanding of the word, “sufficient.”
I asked you six times if Satan was evil before he tempted Adam and Evil. You avoided answering this question six times, offering up instead something about Satan only being corrupted because he had not acted. Well, he had acted, he acted in heaven and was cast out. He was banished for a reason, was he not?
But maybe I’m just daft? Perhaps I’m just not understanding you, so maybe you can clarify your remarks. Are you saying being “corrupted” is not the same as being “evil”?
If so, could you explain precisely what the difference is?
How is “corrupted” not “evil.”
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October 16, 2015 at 13:12
“You did not do this to yourself, your fore parents (A&E) did.”
But A and E are dead. They could not have implanted a sin nature into the fertilized egg that turned into me. So, who did the actual creation and implantation of the sin nature into the fertilized egg that became me? Who did this when I was not responsible for the sins of A and E?
“…You didn’t deserve the sin nature of Adam.”
Well, no, I wouldn’t think that I did. So, who gave this to me? Who had the power to give me a sin nature, a nature that I didn’t deserve?
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October 16, 2015 at 15:46
@ j z
how is corrupted not understood as evil.
Since it seems you wanted that particular word to be used, here it is, and I hope you are now wonderfully settled.
jz, this is you quoting me: *So before he spoke to A&E, his thoughts were corrupted, after that his actions became corrupted.*
Since you seem to have a misunderstanding with corrupted, lets remove it and use the word evil.
Lucifer conceived evil thoughts, and his actions that followed (no action can happen without you conceiving it first in your thought life) were evil. And yes, all this transpired in the garden of Eden.
“Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
You do err, if you believe for one moment that the Garden of Eden is where God dwells. It is just one of the heavenly domains.
Even now, the devil doesn’t live on earth. The realm of space that we call the cosmos or the universe is a physical domain but it carries with it a spiritual, parallel domain equivalent to the heavenly or the high places. This realm, though parallel to space is higher than space itself since it operates at frequencies much higher than what the material world understands. This is the realm that Michael and his angels also patrol. See Daniel.
So it is this realm that Revelation 12 references (war in heaven) and as I mentioned and you seem to be conveniently sidestepping, these events have not happened yet.
No matter how you try to parse it my friend, evil is a product of our thoughts that have been put into action. Truly, a man is what he thinks.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:40
So, Yes, the devil was evil in the garden before he spoke with Adam and Eve.
That’s all you had to say.
Of course, that means evil existed before Adam and Eve.
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October 16, 2015 at 10:28
The church sign? Oh my! Amen and Amen!
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October 16, 2015 at 10:41
Indeed brother
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October 16, 2015 at 10:45
Still smiling!! LOL!
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October 16, 2015 at 10:54
I really like this one Wally! Steve
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October 16, 2015 at 11:03
Thank you Steve very much
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October 16, 2015 at 11:19
@theancients
Of, course you don’t truely believe that a snake talked, right?
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October 16, 2015 at 11:35
Ark, actually, he was the “devil” already in the garden
Revelation 12:7-9:
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
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October 16, 2015 at 11:44
Wasn’t Revelation written after Genesis?
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October 16, 2015 at 11:45
Yes, but its all infallible, right?
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October 16, 2015 at 11:54
Ah … God-breathed or something, yes? From Timothy, right? Another one of the epistles that scholars consider pseudoepigraphical:
Forgery to you and me.
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October 20, 2015 at 12:22
There is no evidence, either within scripture or without, that suggests that the snake in the G of E myth was Satan – that was and always has been an interpretation. In fact, “Satan” as an evil spirit doesn’t even appear in the Bible until after the Babylonian captivity, when the Jews came into contact with the Persians, who freed them to return to the Levant, and the religion of those Persians, Zoroastrianism. which pre-dates Christianity by 600 years.
In Zoroastrianism, there is a good god, Ahura Mazda and his evil adversary, Angra Mainyu. According to Zoroastrianism, to which the captive Jews were exposed in 500 BCE:
— and the idea of a son of a god, born of a virgin, as savior of the world, was born.
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October 16, 2015 at 14:07
It seems to me that this is one of the logical problems theancients doesn’t want to (can’t) deal with:
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October 16, 2015 at 15:50
see above: evil is a product of our thoughts that have been put into action.
Who controls your thoughts j z.
Are you not implored to take all thoughts that are holding you captive into captivity and subject them to the obedience of Christ. Let Jesus be your sufficiency, and strength, He does it best.
be blessed.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:08
What thoughts are holding people in captivity, theancients.
This does not make any sense to me. Can you ( or Wally ) explain in straightforward English, please.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:20
Gonna pass ark this conversation is done nobody has time for you. Peace
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October 16, 2015 at 16:26
Again, the hand waving. You do this every damn time you get caught between a rock and a hard place. Why don”t you man up and simply answer the questions truthfully and honestly?
What is so damn difficult?
And it’s okay to say ”I don’t understand either, but I will research and find out, Ark”.
How hard is that?
Oh, and while we are on the subject of learning stuff, why don’t you read my post about hell. It will open your eyes.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:43
And you descend into cursing and insults anytime a person refuses to pander to you all day long. How about you read anything on my blog about the glorious salvation available through Jesus Christ. I will open your eyes.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:40
It’s different for each person Ark:
Addictions –
Victim’s Mind Set-
Codependency –
Jesus is the one who does most of the work in taking captivity captive; it’s for us to willing cooperate through our free will in wanting the changes that renew our minds.
This includes accepting responsibility for our thought life and actions. Not allowing our minds to be molded by the world, but rather expanding it to fit the heavenly pattern.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:43
I accept full responsibility for my actions and thoughts.
Have done for as long as I can remember.
Could you please explain in plain English exactly what this means.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:48
Why do you care Ark? Would it make any difference? No, it would not. And even if theancients chooses to explain, you wont’ accept the answer. So, I would not bother. But, he can if he chooses. Just keep it clean and stop with the insults. Any more of that and…poof..you disappear.
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October 16, 2015 at 17:04
In plain English – the things that keep us in bondage/captive will be put in bondage/captivity themselves and we will be set free of all captivity.
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October 16, 2015 at 17:06
Thank you. This is clear enough.
What things do you believe keep me in bondage, for example and how is ”freedom” from such bondage possible?
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October 16, 2015 at 17:19
The things that I’d say keep you in bondage Ark are: ego, worldly knowledge.
What’s seen as a symbol of strength in the natural can at the same time be a symbol of pride which can become our downfall.
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October 16, 2015 at 17:29
Ego can be a positive attribute as well, providing it is used for good.
Worldly knowledge has helped fight a great many diseases and illness, such as TB, polio and is working toward a cure for HIV/AIDS
Worldly knowledge has developed the computer and is making our ”Global Village” smaller by the day.
Worldly knowledge has increased enlightenment and reduced certain vile aspects of superstition, such as Witch Burning.
Worldly knowledge introduced the printing press, allowing the bible to be brought to most of humanity and now, at last , with the internet we are beginning to fully understand it, and the positive results of this are slowly beginning to show.
Yes, there are still wars etc but humans are generally moving in an upward fashion as we strive for self -actualization.
This seems like enlightenment to me?
Where in this is bondage?
Can you be more specific?
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October 18, 2015 at 18:06
@ Ark, only in the world is ego seen as a positive attribute.
It’s the human ego that exalts its mere earthly wisdom, limited knowledge and understanding against all that God is, in essence making itself god (putting one’s throne higher than God’s).
I liked your comment because I agree that humans have being able to accomplish much through the application of knowledge.
But,
Man hasn’t created anything new; he’s just discovered the laws that the Lord established from the beginning. “Bird brains” have been flying from the start. The same is true with communications, electricity, computing, and a host of other modern breakthroughs. Man is just discovering the laws God created.
Although mankind has made huge discoveries that have totally changed the way we live, it seems like we know less about ourselves than previous generations. While our ancestors didn’t have all the modern conveniences, they had a peace and strength that eludes most today. As our knowledge of our natural world has increased, our knowledge of spiritual things has decreased. In man’s arrogance, he blindly believes all of life’s problems can be solved by himself. But there can be no peace without if there isn’t peace within.
There is a whole universe that man in all his wisdom is ignorant of. That is the world of the spirit. And I’m not just talking about the spiritual realm outside of us but also the spiritual being inside of every person.” – A. Wommack
The last part was my main point but I wanted you to get the gist of where I was coming from.
Don’t neglect the spiritual you, because that is really who you are. You are spirit, tightly sealed and protected in a body of clay/flesh.
It’s only through the reign of a just and righteous King that you’ll have victory over all your enemies – death, disease, economic struggles, unresolved conflicts, all that worries us etc.
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October 19, 2015 at 04:31
@theancients
As we are in the world and I am guessing by ‘’world’’ you mean existence this is probably the most dumbass statement I have read in a while.
Whenever a person introduces the term god into a dialogue it is good manners that the person states which deity they are referring to. That way the other person will know how to more appropriately respond. So, which god are you talking about, please?
But,
Man hasn’t created anything new; he’s just discovered the laws that the Lord established from the beginning. “Bird brains” have been flying from the start. The same is true with communications, electricity, computing, and a host of other modern breakthroughs. Man is just discovering the laws God created.
Again, there really are so many deities that humans worship, so please, which god are you talking about?
Sadly,this is one of those bulldust theological, metaphysical nonsensical answers that bears absolutely no relevance to the truth. This is currently one of the more peaceful times in human history.
Furthermore, religion and all sorts of god belief in all their sordid repulsive variations has been complicit in so much of the violence and degradation that has been the bane of humanity.
Ah … spiritualism. Interesting. There is a point?
Ah, well and here you go off on one of your esoteric talking-donkey style tangents.
History has shown that Ruling by Divine Right that Kings and Queens have been wont to do has also been a major cause of war, disease, famine etc etc which tends to pee on you rather sill analogy, doesn’t it?
Again, may I ask if there was actually a point you were trying to make?
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October 16, 2015 at 16:29
theancient, yes or no… was Satan evil when he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden?
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October 16, 2015 at 15:55
So there you have it John. Your question clearly answered. If you day that is not an answer, then it simply means it is not the answer you want. Or rather it is not the one that agrees with you. Keep at this and it’s trash bin again.
Peace
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October 16, 2015 at 16:35
How is that an answer, Wally?
Evil is a product of our thoughts? Some is, sure. What about floods? What about fires? What about the Hoverfly larva who will capture the milkweed aphid and sink in their vacuum cleaner-like mouths, slowly sucking the creature’s living innards out while it struggles to hold onto life. What about cancer? As David Barash noted:
“Although the natural world can be marvellous, it is also filled with ethical horrors: predation, parasitism, fratricide, infanticide, disease, pain, old age and death — and that suffering is built into the nature of things.”
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October 16, 2015 at 16:41
John. It’s that person’s answer. It is not the answer you want. What you want is agreement, and anything else is called a non answer by you. That is obvious. You are a waste of my time.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:46
It doesn’t make any sense, Wally.
But I see he’s already agreed above, Satan was, in fact, evil in the Garden…. Hence, by your own story, evil did not begin with Adam and Eve.
As to his allusion that Satan hasn’t actually fallen yet, I have no idea what he’s talking about and will just file that rambling nonsense away with other rambling religious nonsense I often encounter. Of course, Ezekiel 28:12-18 details it quite well.
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October 16, 2015 at 17:29
@ j z,
It’s obvious you’re reading things into what I never said. I never alluded that Satan hasn’t fallen, I said he still dwells in the heavenly domain. And if this is not true, then explain “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer”
If a place was not found for them any longer then obviously up until that point he was still in the heavenly domain.
I don’t use words lightly when I say man ought to hold in awesome esteem our Creator. If one doesn’t understand the physical things how will one understand the things of the heavens.
We have a tremendous inheritance jz, I pray you take the time to read the Bible in the light its written, you’ll be amazed by the glorious, extravagant, brilliant, awesomeness that is Our God.
gotta run…
Thanks again Bro Wally…(gotta go back and read that Ruth-less joke) 🙂
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October 16, 2015 at 17:32
Ha no doubt
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October 16, 2015 at 18:35
Who on earth cares where Satan resides? I didn’t ask about residence, I asked about an event detailed in a story… and you have since confirmed, Yes, Satan was evil when he was in the garden. Given Satan was evil we may conclude evil existed in Creation before Adam and Eve.
That’s all I was concerned with. It is a story, after all. Now, how you, the theist who believes this story, responds to this revelation is up to you.
Take care
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October 17, 2015 at 17:22
That’s an incorrect and unwise conclusion and it says you do not care about truth; you are more enamored with your trivial arguments.
I don’t expect the following sentence to mean anything to you, it’s there to vindicate the truth of the Word to those who are seeking to know the true nature of God. “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
If tomorrow you discover you have something you weren’t born with; it would be a complete lie/ignorance to conclude you were born with it.
Integrity is a choice.
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October 17, 2015 at 17:49
In the Age of Information, Ignorance is a Choice.
Satan was evil before he spoke with Adam and Eve. Evil existed before man.
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October 17, 2015 at 17:57
Indeed, you are correct John. Ignorance is a choice. Why do you persist in remaining that way? Even in the face of your willful rejection of Him and fist waving at Him, God would instantly and forever forget all of that upon your simple repentance and faith.
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October 17, 2015 at 19:49
Why do you persist in remaining that way?
Would you like to have a conversation on biblical archaeology, Wally? 😉
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October 17, 2015 at 18:28
j z,
you are correct that Satan was evil before he spoke to A &E, but from this very statement A&E were present, so I guess the point you’re trying to make is that evil didn’t begin with man but with Satan, which every Christian agrees with.
Isn’t that what every believer says: The woman was deceived by the devil. So you’ve spent your time arguing a non-point.
Friend, Christianity is information in a world devoid of information, it is precious light in a world devoid of light and consumed by darkness. Those who want to stumble will stay away from the precious words of God but those who seek to find refuge from the bitterness of the darkness (a form of ignorance) will humbly come to the Light.
Darkness is deep ignorance. Believing the lies of the devil is ignorance.
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October 17, 2015 at 19:48
Right, sin did not begin with Adam. Sin already existed in Creation. Human’s are not to blame, so your illness narrative collapses.
As I said earlier, how you deal with this revelation is now up to you. I can only show you the truth… 😉
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October 18, 2015 at 17:19
I have to shake my head at either your willful misunderstanding or your desperate need to keep a non-point (that you clearly think is a HUGE point) going.
The devil cannot force you nor could he force A&E to do anything. Deception is the only tool of the devil, and he needs a person’s consent and co0peration in order to get whatever he wants done.
You have already fallen hook, line and sinker for his deception: “Yea, did God say”…
You can continue with this empty argument …I’ll continue with my relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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October 18, 2015 at 17:35
The Christian narrative is that evil came into this world through Adam and Eve. That, evidently, is contradicted by the story itself. Evil existed in Creation before man. Creation was corrupted before the Garden. The angels fell before man… Heaven was diseased before Adam… the tumour Christianity blames on man was, as we can see, already well-established. Yhwh had already lost control of his Creation.
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October 18, 2015 at 18:09
Actually John you have no understanding of the Christian narrative whatsoever as you constantly get it wrong. Quite no purpose I suspect as you are far from stupid. I see where you are heading with this so don’t bother as it’s not happening. And don’t fake ignorance John about where you are heading just don’t head there.
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October 18, 2015 at 18:16
I haven’t hidden where I’m heading. In fact, I’ve laid it right out there. By your own narrative, the one shaped from Judaism, evil existed in creation before man. The angels fell before man. Original sin does not lay at Adams feet, but the angels. This is why there is no original sin narrative in Judaism… It’s a Christian invention, and it contradicts the bedrock narrative.
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October 19, 2015 at 12:32
John you have been moderated. You ask the same question over and over and never engage the answer. You are only looking to repeat your own point over and over. Move on
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October 19, 2015 at 12:48
Censorship is a sign of weakness and insecurity.
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October 19, 2015 at 12:56
hey jz
From certain words strung together by your ‘friends’ who are regular patrons to your site, and agreed by you, some would attest that moderating is quite useful.
But what passes for the need for ‘scrutiny,’ is merely an excuse to continue a dialog in areas that have long been settled.
‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.’ Scrutinize that.
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October 18, 2015 at 18:19
How can creation be corrupted before the Garden, when Adam was formed and then taken to the Garden.
Gen 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
It was in the Garden that help was sought and provided for Adam. Gen 2:18-20
You seem to think man and the angels are the same.
Meditate on why redemption is given to man but not to angels.
Friend, when you humble, reverence, and esteem the creator of this universe, then you’ll get a glimpse into His marvelous love for mankind and His true nature.
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October 18, 2015 at 18:36
I am not talking only of man, but of Creation itself. Can you not broaden your thoughts to include the All? The All was diseased before man. Original sin is not man’s, but the angels. Creation was corrupted before Yhwh made man. As such, he brought man into an already failed and decomposing Creation.
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October 18, 2015 at 18:49
Your last 2 sentences are completely false.
I just showed you that man was placed in the garden before beasts etc. were formed.
Gen 3:1 The serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field that the Lord God had made…
Funny, if man was brought into a failed and decomposing creation then evolution is a complete and total lie.
This is my last comment.
Keep your deception, I’ll stick with the Word of God.
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October 18, 2015 at 19:03
Again, why are you limiting your thoughts to just the human/earthly theatre? Creation is far broader than that.
The angels were created before the earth and before man (Job 38:4-7). Evil entered Creation before the earth, and before man. Creation was diseased and the tumor was already growing before Yhwh fashioned man.
Yhwh, therefore, brought man into an infected, corrupted, impure world.
Why would he do such a thing?
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October 19, 2015 at 11:00
Not a response to you: Just want to set things straight so no one is deceived by your deliberate misinformation.
Sin is rebellion against God. It requires an action. Evil is a product of our thoughts that have been put into action.
How is God responsible for a beings rebellion, evil thoughts & actions. He’s NOT.
Everything I mentioned above did not take place in the earth. This shows you do not know where Eden & the garden is. (If it had taken place on the earth, how could they have been sent back to the ground from which they came).
Man was formed from the dust of the ground, then taken from this ground and placed in a protected Garden, “eastward” in Eden.
I already mentioned above the beasts were formed from the ground of this Garden – clearly after Adam was living in it & Eve not yet formed.
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October 17, 2015 at 20:49
John, it is interesting to contemplate another verse:
‘I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.’ (Isaiah 45:7)
A question I used to sometimes be asked was “why did God create the Devil?”
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October 17, 2015 at 21:51
@ Peter. May I make an observation Peter? You fairly consistently point fingers at Christians over two issues. Issue one is, you say we have treated you badly. Issue two is you say we refuse to engage you in dialogue and answer your concerns.
Yet, several times lately I have attempted to engage you in direct dialogue and have been completely ignored. Yet, when you do show up on my blog, it is invariably in the company of folks like John Zande, or Ark, who clearly have an anti Christian agenda.
I find that odd since you lay claim to constant mistreatment by Christians and also that we don’t want to actually converse with you. Perhaps there are valid reasons you are considered suspect Peter.
Think about that some. In the meantime, this is not the forum for you and John to conduct your assaults on God’s Word. If you want to do that, get a blog. If you want to talk like an adult, then we can do that here.
Peace
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October 18, 2015 at 00:08
I’m sorry Wally.
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October 18, 2015 at 05:31
Thank you Peter, I appreciate that.
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October 16, 2015 at 16:39
@the ancients
Once more this goes straight over my head.
Exactly what ”poisoned” doctrine are you talking about? Can you be specific rather than seemingly vague and ambiguous?
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October 17, 2015 at 09:00
Ooh, BUUUUURN.
The anti-theists should at least be able to appreciate how clever that sign was.
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October 17, 2015 at 09:02
I have to say Luke, I agree. That is actually the sign at my church this week, and I was pretty proud of the preacher! Thanks my friend!
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October 19, 2015 at 13:08
@jz
Sigh. cut and paste.
I’d like to borrow a thought from my friend insanitybytes22, who observed recently that some do not see ‘the big picture.’
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.’
God has no defects; it is we the people who come up short, both by birth and practice.
It may help if you would try for once to see things from His point of view, instead of the dusty bins of collected unbelief, and follow the Creator’s footprints, instead of making Him walk in yours.
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October 19, 2015 at 17:32
“It is we the people who come up short, both by birth and practice.”
So, how is it that we come up short “by birth?”
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October 19, 2015 at 17:42
Half way there as we pin by nature and by choice
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October 19, 2015 at 17:49
And how many times has this been answered for you David? Many many it has. No answer satisfies. It’s not that it has not been explained but that you don’t like the conditions of the answer. But again it is not God’s Word that falls short here but you. In fact falling short is the problem. Mine. Yours. All of us
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October 19, 2015 at 17:55
And how many times has this been answered for you David?”
Just wondered what Colorstorm’s take on this would be. The answers that one gets from CS are often…unique.
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October 19, 2015 at 17:57
Well he is welcome to answer if he is so inclined.
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October 19, 2015 at 17:57
And yes, I understand that we sin “by nature.” And God created us with that “nature.” Now, is that “nature” that was created by God a good thing or a bad thing?
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October 19, 2015 at 17:59
David read what is in front of you. Many have answered.
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October 19, 2015 at 18:01
Well, I’m not see that I see a direct answer to this particular question. All I need is “good thing” or “bad thing.”
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October 19, 2015 at 18:08
Really David? Why do you need it? Does the answer matter? If you got the answer you want would you then believe?
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October 19, 2015 at 18:51
You see, Wally? I never actually get an answer. Just evasion. So it goes.
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October 19, 2015 at 19:00
So says the commenter who just ignored a direct question. David I do not exist to simply answer one question after another from you. No answer satisfies you. Not following every trail you take is not evasion and for you to state such is quite presumptuous. So it goes
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October 19, 2015 at 19:24
“No answer satisfies you.”
It’s not a matter of “satisfying” me. It’s just a matter of getting an answer. Answers are just answers, regardless of what one would do with them.
“Not following every trail you take is not evasion and for you to state such is quite presumptuous.”
Ok, it was presumptuous. Still didn’t get an answer, and not for the first time.
By the way, I was “following a trail” that CS brought up.
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October 19, 2015 at 20:04
Well. then If ColorStorm wants to keep at this one, he is imminently welcome to do just that.
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October 19, 2015 at 20:19
Fair enough.
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October 19, 2015 at 20:35
I doubt he will bother, as it’s usually a losing proposition to talk with you David, as you aren’t here to talk, just argue. Oh, yeah…you never answered my question….just what would it take for you to believe?
Oh wait..one more..yes or no…does God exist?
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October 19, 2015 at 20:52
“Just what would it take for you to believe?
I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know. “Belief” is a very odd thing. But God knows, right? So God can provide what is needed.
“Oh wait..one more..yes or no…does God exist?”
Honest answer? I don’t know. Does the OT/NT God exist? I think it’s very unlikely for reasons which I’m sure are clear to you by now.
That’s as accurate and as honest as I can be.
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October 19, 2015 at 20:55
That’s a fair answer David, and thanks for it. I really didn’t have a reason for asking, it just popped in my head to be honest. I appreciate the honesty.
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October 20, 2015 at 12:03
“Another thing, please don’t think this heaven is speaking of the Heaven where our God dwells.” – Not the same heaven? Is there more than one?
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October 20, 2015 at 12:15
yes.
The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God:
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s:
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host,
just a few for your consideration.
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October 20, 2015 at 12:39
“‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.’ Scrutinize that.”
— Colorstorm —
Gladly, CS – that sentence was written in the 500’s BCE, by anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Aaronid priests in captivity in Babylon, who knew nothing of how the Cosmos came to be.
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October 20, 2015 at 12:42
@ancients – “How can creation be corrupted before the Garden….You seem to think man and the angels are the same.”
Were angels not created before the Garden? If not, please cite your source.
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October 20, 2015 at 16:01
when your questions are provided with solid evidence from the Bible, suddenly Scripture is written by “anonymous, superstitious (priests- if they’re anonymous, how do you know they’re priests) who know nothing of the cosmos.”
instead of asking for evidence, why don’t you provide yours, and I won’t even be disappointed if you cite your evidence from Scripture.
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October 21, 2015 at 00:38
After all of the criteria, with which you had objection, this is what your going with?
“em”instead of asking for evidence, why don’t you provide yours</em" – I asked first, you answer first, that's how it works –!
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October 20, 2015 at 12:45
@ancients – “Sin is rebellion against God. It requires an action.”
Didn’t angels rebel against the Bible’s god?
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October 20, 2015 at 18:51
Just so you didn’t think I was evading the question.
Since the answer is quiet obvious, you should ask or state what’s really on your mind.
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October 20, 2015 at 19:06
Good luck with that request my friend.
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October 20, 2015 at 19:35
lol… I know…
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October 21, 2015 at 00:51
Run, Forrest, run!
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October 21, 2015 at 00:50
If the answer is so obvious, perhaps you should answer it, instead of skirting the question —
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October 20, 2015 at 22:06
Exactly how does satan, a limited finite, non-omnipresent fallen angel know my past or anyone/everyone’s past?
Are we in danger of giving him godlike powers and abilities?
Another thought is that in the OT, satan is the adversary of man on God’s payroll for His purposes at His command.
In the NT and in Christian theology, he seems to be the adversary of God (dualistic, equal opponent) on his own dime and setting up a competing ‘downline’ of human servants like a bad MLM scheme. Not even as a christian should the biblically literate give this spiritual Crack dealer the kind of credit we give him.
Which is it? OT servant of God or NT megalomaniac?
-KIA
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October 21, 2015 at 00:54
“Are we in danger of giving him godlike powers and abilities?”
The question that bothers me the most, is can he hack into my email account –?
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October 21, 2015 at 04:07
As Wally once publicly stated that my Dad was the Devil, you can relax. My father’s ( self-confessed) computer skills run to, ”Mother, which is the on button again?”
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October 21, 2015 at 14:26
Whew —
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October 21, 2015 at 05:17
sure… NSA lacks only the other two letters. I’m sure there’s a conspiracy theory there somewhere LOL
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October 21, 2015 at 05:27
@ KIA. Odd this is. You ask me not to follow your blog, yet you demand free will to come here and preach your atheist doctrine. Cut it off. Write your own blog about it. That’s pretty safe, as nobody reads it anyway.
@ KIA and Ark. Really? Coming to a writer’s blog in the middle of the night and piling up stupid, childish comments is adult discussion? Cut it off.
@ Arch. Same to you. Come up with some other argument besides mockery and insults.
Peace gentlemen. This conversation is over.
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October 21, 2015 at 14:33
“Odd this is.” – Yoda?
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October 22, 2015 at 07:55
Just a quick comment Wally – we’re all in different time zones, working different shifts and I know you try to respond quickly. But complaining about when people respond is a bit unfair. Sure complain about content, style, attitude, views, as you do. But timing?
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October 22, 2015 at 08:03
The time zone issue is valid. Thanks for the input
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October 22, 2015 at 08:05
You’re welcome. I left your ‘animal’ post alone. I figured my input would have been most unwelcome on that one 🙂
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October 21, 2015 at 07:42
I agree Wally, the conversation has long been over, identically the same way the sin issue was once and for all settled with the uttering of ‘it is finished,’ covering clearly all the nonsense, petty insults, misrepresentations, innuendoes, slander, and all the other garbage tossed at scripture, as clearly demonstrated by the naysayers here.
And oh, ‘Forever O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.’ Yeah, like scripture can be unsettled by a few pebble tossers.
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October 21, 2015 at 07:45
Amen brother thanks
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October 21, 2015 at 07:57
You lay your own snare john, then walk right in where you are spiritually frozen in logic.
You incorrectly say I am angry here, the same way you misrepresent the character of God. Not too smart.
‘Diseased?’ Your word. I see the glory of God where you see tohu va bohu.
I see a great God above all, you see a failing image of your own projection.
Once more though, if I were a doctor and you visited me, I would kindly ask you WHY you devote your life, your energy, your every breath, to that which you despise…………….
Unless…………………you know it was true…………..
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October 21, 2015 at 08:28
Censoring comments again, Wally?
Are you denying the chronology of events?
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October 21, 2015 at 08:30
I am John this thread is done
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October 21, 2015 at 08:28
Jz sez:
—Is this not the equivalent of a father moving his children into a house that is already ablaze?—
I repeat, you set your own trap. If the house were ‘already ablaze,’ strange then how I could see the glory of God in the face of such madness. No, john, you conclusion is wrong because your premise is wrong.
The scriptures cannot be broken, yet you try to break…………God is much stronger than you or I, and His word is much better than yours or mine.
‘It is forever settled in heaven.’ And since it is settled, I too am saying good bye to this thread.
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October 22, 2015 at 09:44
It’s hard to believe that in the 21st century, there are still people who believe in an actual devil.
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November 1, 2015 at 17:10
What a wonderful message, Wally! The concept is so important to abuse victims, who very often carry misplaced guilt and focus on their own shortcomings (or perceived shortcomings). Thank you.
Your friend,
Anna
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November 1, 2015 at 19:12
And what a great comment Anna. As I have told you before, I really value how you take the words we hear in Scripture and apply them to reality in the lives of real people. Thank you my friend, Wally
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November 5, 2015 at 19:00
This quote from Revelation is ominous and scary and I must admit that my understanding of the future is a bit dim.
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November 5, 2015 at 19:04
It is rather ominous isn’t it? Especially if you happen to be Satan! Understand the future? Ha..hardly. I know there is one, and I know God has it planned out perfectly. Other than that? I am not to hung up on end times stuff. Too much yet to see happen here, and too many lost souls.
Silence thanks for coming by, reading, and commenting.
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