1 Kings 18:25-29
And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
Well, here we are! The time for the great “showdown: is here! I hope readers notice that every time I type that word, “showdown,” it has been in quotation marks; that has not been an accident. We often refer to this as the contest on mount Carmen between the Prophet Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Two points are critical to assess at this point: It was NOT a contest, and it was NOT between Elijah and anybody. The result of this confrontation was predetermined, preordained, and there was never any question of just who would prevail here. Elijah was simply God’s chosen tool and representative; he was simply the man God had picked to show His might and power to the idolatrous Israelites, Ahab, and the prophets of Baal.
Before we move on, let’s recap quickly where we have been. Three long years ago, Elijah had pronounced God’s judgement via drought on the nation of Israel for turning their backs on God under the leadership of King Ahab and the evil, idol worshiping Queen Jezebel. Elijah then took off into the desert to escape the wrath of the angry Jezebel, who we find out later began a systematic pogrom and purge of the men of God in the Kingdom. Elijah basically hid himself out for three years first by a brook where he was fed by a raven daily, then with a widow woman and her child, where God provided for the three of them. Elijah was doing much more than just hanging out; God was working a purpose in The Prophet. Elijah was being taught, groomed, and strengthened for a great work
What are some of the things Elijah learned over the course of three years?
Elijah learned that, if God called him to do something even though seemingly dangerous, that He would protect and provide for him. We see that as he sat by the brook Kidron for a year drinking its waters and being fed by a raven. We see that as God provided for Elijah for two more years while dwelling with the widow woman and her son, who just before Elijah’s arrival were preparing to eat their last meal and die.
Elijah learned that God would provide physical safety for His people if He puts them at risk. No doubt while Elijah was sitting hidden by that brook, Ahab and his soldiers were desperately seeking to kill this prophet who had spoken so brashly against him. Then God sends Elijah to abide with the widow, practically in the evil Queen Jezebel’s very back yard!
Elijah learned that his God can do anything, even seemingly the impossible. Remember that the raising of the widow woman’s son was the first instance in The Bible of that occurring. It must have been an amazing and awesome thing for Elijah to be a part of, and must have forever cemented in The Prophet’s mind the power of God.
Elijah learned that sometimes we just have to be where God puts us, and that every mission counts. He spent likely two years in the widow’s home, very likely sharing his God with her. As we see, she did become a believer in the One True God. Than may have seemed like an insignificant little mission, but Elijah was willing, and he simply did it.
Now it’s time. Elijah has invited the people of Israel, Ahab, Jezebel, and the prophets of Baal and Asherah to a confrontation on mount Carmel. We would find out soon, just who the real God was, and who the fake gods were as well. The challenge was straightforward. Each side would take a sacrificial bullock, lay it on the altar, and the God who consumed the sacrifice with fire from heaven would prove the be the true God.
Right from the beginning, we see Elijah striking right at the heart of the believers of Baal. After all, Baal was the god of storms and lighthing(fire from heaven.) Surely such a god could perform his mission, right? Not only that, but Elijah said they could go first, and take all of the time they needed to call their god and watch him work.
Call they did! They called, and called, and called some more. There was silence. Where was Baal? They danced, shouted some more, and even cut themselves. Still, there was silence. Where was Baal?
It seems Elijah had the same question, and his reaction may seem odd to us. Elijah shouted at the dancing prophets of Baal and mocked them! Is Baal sleeping? Is he travelling? Perhaps he cannot hear so well? There is even writing that suggests Elijah asked the frantic prophets of Baal if perhaps their god was out relieving himself. Honestly, this is smack talking at its best!
So, what can we learn here? Are we to mock and deride those who have opposing views from us? Are we to mock and deride those who may mock and deride God and thumb their nose in His face? Probably not. We are called to:
I Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
That doesn’t really sound like mockery now does it? Perhaps we should take a quick more in depth look at the term “meek.” Meek as described in the Bible does not mean a retiring weakness, but rather a state of strength under control. In its every day usage it was commonly used to describe the training of a horse. A horse would be “meeked.” That stallion would not lose one ounce of it’s vast strength and power, but that power would simply be controlled and in a submissive state to the desires of its master. That is how meekness applies to us, Great power, from the Holy Spirit, under control and submissive to the desires of our master, Jesus Christ.
So, are we to mock our “opponents?” Very likely the answer to that is simply: no. On the other hand, when faced with open challenges to our God, mockery of Him, and open mistreatment of His people, are we to turn the other cheek and head for the hills? Maybe. There is a time for heading for the hills, but the when is not our decision; that timing and that decision belongs to God. Our job is to listen to Him and execute that timing according to His will. On the other hand, God may not be telling us to head for the hills.
It may be our time, just as it was Elijah’s time. Perhaps we have been taught, tested, provided for and molded, and it is time for God to use us in a great way. So, while maybe mockery is not the way we should deal with those who oppose or mock God, standing in an unequivocal way against them is just fine and dandy.
When told that “truth is relative,” and that it’s not what we believe that matters but how sincerely we believe it, are we willing to look a person in the eye and say: “That is untrue!”?
When the people we are with mock God, Jesus, and those who believe in Him, do we speak up or remain silent?
Are we willing to speak out against things God clearly considers sin, even when the tide of the world says otherwise?
When God asks us to go to our mount Carmel, will we be willing?
September 22, 2015 at 07:58
Good post Wally. We definitely live in a time where God is being called out and we have a responsibility to stand in front of the confrontation.
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September 22, 2015 at 08:27
Aaron thank you for reading and commenting. You are correct in that. It’s a tough thing to do though huh?
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September 22, 2015 at 08:06
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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September 22, 2015 at 08:11
Thank you Brother Vincent
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September 22, 2015 at 09:08
You’re very welcome Brother Wally!
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September 22, 2015 at 08:28
Hi Wally –
This has always been one of my favorite Bible passages, and you put some interesting insight into it. I notice that when you speak of non-believers mocking God, you give options of turning the other cheek and walking away, speaking up, remaining silent, etc. However, in the original passage, Elijah was not calling for the prophets of Baal to provide their ready defense of Baal, and I don’t think he would have been impressed by them simply ‘speaking up.’ Elijah’s challenge was, quite simply, ‘You say your god can do this…. Prove It!!’ In modern parlance, it would have been ‘Put up or shut up.’
One of the reasons I’ve always liked this passage it because I think it shows a bit of a double standard: The Bible speaks in several places (Isaiah 41:21-24, for example) that we are to put all other gods to the test. Demand the hard evidence and make them prove themselves. The message is that, when they are unable to do so, you will know that they are false idols and gods. Does Christianity not seem to back away from its own challenge? Is there a difference in Elijah demanding tangible proof from the prophets of Baal and modern unbelievers demanding tangible proof of God? I can’t see Elijah being content with an answer like “Baal works in mysterious ways” or “Baal’s invisible qualities are clearly seen so that man is without excuse.”
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September 22, 2015 at 08:33
Hey Jon thanks for coming by. You raise some interesting points there. I do have some thoughts on that that I will share later on as in my work truck on my phone makes such a reply sort of difficult. So don’t think I am ignoring you. In the meantime I am ok with anybody sharing their thoughts on the matter.
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September 22, 2015 at 10:23
Hi Jon, I was wondering are you saying you think Christianity teaches the Christian can/should request others to “put up or shut up” while at the same time Christians themselves are exempt from having to do so?
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September 22, 2015 at 12:08
Hi Cindy – I wouldn’t say that Christianity considers itself entirely exempt from this, otherwise there would be no field of apologetics or the innumerable books, blogs, etc. that fall under that umbrella. What I see, however, is that there seems to be a definite disdain for the unbeliever who demands tangible proof. While most theists certainly have their arguments for their particular god, many of these are ultimately grounded in personal experience, “God is evident in the world around us,” and “God works in mysterious ways.” I frequently see atheists chastised for demanding empirical evidence, and this is often met with a response that “God just doesn’t work that way.”
My greater point in this is that, though it is criticized, I have always seen my request for hard evidence to be along the lines of what Elijah demanded of the prophets of Baal.
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September 22, 2015 at 13:08
Thanks, Jon, and I absolutely agree with you. Far too many people, Christians included, ground their beliefs exclusively in personal experience. Not shocking then when asked for “hard evidence” they either can’t respond because they have none and so resort to personal attacks and insults to distract from that fact, or they wind up abandoning their beliefs because they see how they had no true foundation, only to form new ones without a foundation. The difficulty I’ve run up against time and again is the way people want to define things like “tangible proof” and “hard evidence.” I can provide tangible proof and hard evidence all day long and the response every time be that I need to provide proof and evidence. I’ve been absolutely amazed at what some people consider to be evidence but even more amazed at what they dismiss as evidence. It’s frustrating because at that point there’s no other outcome than for dialogue to just shut down.
Jon, you definitely shouldn’t be criticized or shut down when you ask for proof and evidence, and I’m sorry you seem to have had this experience multiple times with Christians. Wally cited 1 Peter 3:15. It doesn’t say “Always be prepared to ask everyone else to give the reason for the hope THEY have.” It says “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that YOU have…” The Bible holds the Christian responsible – and accountable – for being prepared to answer questions as to why we follow Christ, who is our Hope, and why we believe what we believe.
Personal experience is a form of evidence most certainly and should never be dismissed on its face, but personal experience does not stand alone and, when requested, needs to be presented in conjunction with, not in contrast to, “tangible proof” and “hard evidence.” All these together should form a coherent, reasonable, sustainable worldview. All Christians, and all people of any worldview including yourself, should be willing and able to provide evidence in addition to personal experience. Bottom line, though, is if someone doesn’t want to believe something is evidence, you sure can’t make them.
Thanks again for responding to my question, Jon!!
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September 23, 2015 at 10:08
I think you’re definitely on to something about the different definitions of what constitutes evidence–that’s something that intrigues me. Many theists discount evidence shown by science as being insufficient. Likewise, many atheists discount the evidence provided by theologians as being insufficient. To each side, it seems perfectly clear, and we just can’t understand how someone else would not see it. Sometimes when I get so frustrated by a Christian’s dismissal of my ‘evidence,’ I have to stop and think how easily I can tend to flippantly dismiss theirs.
I don’t entirely discount personal experience, but I think it is limited in its applications. Your personal experience may indeed be a large part of the basis for your beliefs, and it may be a great means of explaining to someone else why it is that you belive as you do. Personal experience is great in the form of testimonies, but I’m not sure it can be evidence for another person.
I see many people act hurt when someone else doesn’t validate their experiences. Especially when it’s someone you love, it can seem like we’re being dismissive, that we don’t believe them, or even that we think they’re lying. The problem is that, with so many different experiences–some of them conflicting–that even if I wholly trust the person, I can’t properly assess the validity of each experience without my own perspective.
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September 23, 2015 at 18:24
Thanks again, Jon! Your comments about evidence could have come out of my own mouth I’m telling you! Totally agree.
Concerning personal experience, like you, I absolutely believe it has limited application and value as far as evidence to people who do not hold the same beliefs since, like you said, there really is no way to assess the validity of someone else’s experience. I am not a Christian who believes you should be out there telling strangers you meet on the street (or on the internet) who hold opposing worldviews about your personal experiences in relation to Christianity (unless asked). Why? Because I am not the center of the faith – Christ is – and He is the One who we are to lift up. There is a great danger in emphasizing one’s personal experience when speaking with people of other worldviews for the very reason you’ve learned and cited – it’s not going to be verifiable by them, and it’s not something they can even associate with. It’s along the lines of quoting Scripture and using the Bible as your primary form of evidence when speaking with someone who doesn’t believe in the God of Christianity. Not that I don’t think it’s the inspired, inerrant word of God. I absolutely do. But when a person doesn’t consider the Bible true from a theological standpoint and definitely when they don’t consider it true even from a “secular” standpoint as a valid piece of historical literature, it can hardly be the foundation upon which you argue for the validity and truth of your worldview and beliefs.
If you are going to speak with someone who holds an opposing viewpoint, you have to be willing meet them on their “turf” or at least on neutral ground. And you can’t start the discussion by drilling into them what you believe, what your personal experience has been, and then add to it all the reasons you think what they think is wrong. That’s pretty one-sided and hardly qualifies as a discussion. You have to find common ground to start from, something you both hold as true, like that Jesus actually was a real human being who lived and walked this earth (but many today don’t even believe that). Then you go forward from the common ground you’ve established. And you never stoop to personal attacks. That’s what drives me craziest – to get asked for evidence, usually scientific, provide it, then instead of going on to discuss it, it’s completely ignored and they go off on another tangent, and if you try to steer the conversation back to the original topic, they proceed with cursing and insults and never address the topic at hand. Yet they’ll claim they’re searching for truth. Not exactly…
A lot of times when the disconnect happens is when a person wants to know why you believe what you believe, what’s the foundation for it and the evidence you rely on, and you answer with a story of how you came to your beliefs. People of all worldviews are guilty of that, not just Christianity. And what they are doing is confusing the “why” with the “how.” Personal experience often explains the “how” I came to my worldview. In the case of a Christian, maybe the person answers “I was raised in a Christian home” or “I went to church, heard the Gospel and felt compelled to commit my life to Christ” or “I lost my father as a young child and turned to God for comfort and healing,” and among believers personal experience can also be a source of strength and encouragement as you attest to how God has worked in and through you, and perhaps most importantly, personal experience can – and should – affirm other forms of evidence and serve as part of the big picture of a reasonable, coherent worldview. But I agree that it really isn’t the best platform to stand on and argue from for your worldview, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, agnosticism, atheism, materialism, humanism, and so on.
If you have any comments or questions or would like to talk about this or any other topic further with me, please feel free to hop over to my blog any time and just hop on any post, doesn’t have to be relevant to that post. Wally’s always so gracious and I hate to take up any more space on his blog. It’s been nice chatting with you, Jon!
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September 23, 2015 at 18:33
Mi blog es su blog. On the other hand Jon there is good reading over there that is certainly worth a visit
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September 23, 2015 at 18:34
Gracious and awesome, Wally – thanks!! 🙂
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September 22, 2015 at 17:36
Hey Jon
Thanks for being patient. They worked me like Hebrew slave today, to coin a phrase LOL.
First of all, let me tell some things about me. I am not an apologist, a philosopher, or a scientist. I am a witness. As that, I can only relay to you the things I have seen, or the thing which happened to me.
God. Obviously God cannot be proven or disproven, simply by His nature. One would have to have all knowledge at one’s disposal to prove or disprove the existence of the being we call God. So, proving God is a losing proposition, but then again so is disproving HIm. The answers you get, such as God’s ways being mysterious and so forth? Well, to a certain extent that is simply fact. A God who was completely understandable would really not be much of a God, now would He? But, really, so what? We don’t understand everything there is to understand, and seeming conflicts and disagreements are rife in the faith. Again, so what? In many ways that is not that different then the hard sciences as they also are rife with unknowns and disagreements within the various disciplines. Not having all information of full agreement among the “believers” in an area does not mean the entire system is invalid.
It boils down to evidence and what a person considers evidence and what one accepts as evidence. We can both line up scholars for our position up and down the street, and neither one of us will every be able to prove we are absolutely, beyond doubt, correct. So, what have we then? We make decisions, Jon, based on what we see and what we do with it.
Now, on the relationships. Really there is simply no need for much of the spite and carrying on from both sides of this debate. Yep…been guilty of it myself, as I tend to be a testy sort by nature. Shame on me for it. On the other hand, I don’t fill my arsenal with the arguments that non believers only don’t believe because they are under educated, mentally ill, or outright stupid. Sadly, I see that often, and am subject to it fairly often too.
Ah…Elijah. Hate to disagree with your analysis of that passage, but I will okay? Elijah was not attempting to get the the prophets of Baal to prove anything, so to equate current day atheists with Elijah the prophet is really a poor corollary. Remember, that story did not begin on mount Carmel; it began three years previously. Elijah knew precisely what was going down on that mountain. He had been fed by a raven for a year, watched a barrels of flour and oil refill for two years, and seen a boy raised from the dead. This was not a contest, Jon.
So, why doesn’t God send fire from Heaven to prove Himself today? Times were different then, and I am pretty sure you know that, as you seem to have studied quite a bit. There was no canon of Scripture, there was no Jesus Christ(only the promise of Messiah at this point), and the Holy Spirit was not yet taking permanent residence in believers. Miracles, signs and wonders were how the bona fides of those speaking for God were established.
Today. What evidence do we have?
Creation. Yep creation screams creator. Just like a painting screams painter or a building screams builder, a creation screams creator.
God’s Word. We can argue about it all day long, but the evidence I see leads me to believe I have the inspired Word of God in that book.
The life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yes, I know many argument counter to that as historical fact, but I also know many more evidences of it’s reality.
Finally Jon, I offer the only experiential evidence I will present, I know and can observe the changed lives of people who have submitted to Jesus Christ and accepted His gift of salvation. I know the changes in my life and understand that only someone far more powerful than me could have changed me the way He did.
Hope that helps Jon, and thanks for dropping by.
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September 23, 2015 at 10:05
Thank you for the candid response, Wally. I fully agree with much of what you say about not being able to prove or disprove God and about how it ultimately comes down to an analysis of the evidence and which arguments seem most compelling to each individual person.
I also agree that the episode on Mount Carmel was not a ‘contest’ as such–it was not any sort of challenge to see who had the better god. Yes, this was just one part of a three-year story, but the backstory belonged to Elijah. He had three years of experience that told him that God was real. We don’t hear the story from the perspective of the prophets of Baal, but I’m sure they weren’t without their own experiences which supported their own faith. Elijah’s story didn’t begin on Mount Carmel, but neither did that of the prophets of Baal.
So while I agree that this was not a contest per se, I disagree that Elijah wasn’t trying to get them to prove something. Based on his experience, he went up there with the knowledge that he could prove his God. And while he may have had every reason to believe that the prophets of Baal wouldn’t be able to do likewise, he did give them the opportunity. The outcome was essentially, ‘If you can’t demonstrate your god, we have nothing to talk about here.’
Applying this to myself, I have my own backstory–several years of reading, studying, etc. My experiences have led me to the conclusion that there is no God. Thus, when I ask for the evidence, it’s not a challenge for a contest, but rather it’s along the lines of Elijah’s call to demonstrate you God.
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September 23, 2015 at 10:34
No problem Jon. I still disagree that modern atheists and Elijah have that much in common, but I understand the questioning put to Christians. I also understand that not much I say will change your mind on this issue.
Did I hear you say once that you attend church regularly? I thought I did. I find that curious to say the least.
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September 23, 2015 at 11:28
Yes, I’m a bit of a conundrum that way. 🙂 I’ve actually studied with a number of different religious groups from Christianity to Islam to Judaism, New Age and Eastern religions, etc. I tend to gravitate more to the teaching than the preaching these days, but I do love to learn what I can.
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September 23, 2015 at 21:06
As I grow older I’ve been more cautious to use 1 Kings 18 to justify mocking unbelievers. I still think there’s a place with false teachers but true Christian apologist must be willing to use it sparingly.
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September 23, 2015 at 21:14
I would agreed that with non believers it’s probably a bad idea. But my patience with false teaching is getting thin because of some things that have happened on here.
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September 23, 2015 at 21:18
Active false teachers are game in my book. Especially if they pick on Christians.
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September 23, 2015 at 21:18
Works for me brother!
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September 24, 2015 at 05:40
Thanks Bruce!
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